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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

^The issue is not being timid, it's making the pieces fall into place in an assured manner that will work. Just because NZ is in a hurry doesn't mean they have all the variables addressed in a manner that we can achieve here.... different suppliers, different approvals, different construction timelines.

The issues being, even assuming a crash effort to put UPE on Hydrail:

1) Where is an appropriate place to site a Hydrogen production facility in the GTA?

2) How long would it take to design? To clear the EA and the urban planning approvals? To procure and commission?

3) What energy source will be used for Hydrogen production? How long to design approve and install the feed? (Gas pipeline? Hydro?)

4) How long would it take to procure railcars compatible with UPE dimensions (needs door spacing and length compatible with Union and Pearson platforms), or, can the stations be modified to match door spacing for whatever hydrail equipment is on the market?

It sure seems that South Etobicoke, having a large industrial zoned area, with access to hydro at Manby TS (where GO intends to build a substation, with a feeder down the Canpa Sub), water from Lake Ontario, and being close to Willowbrook, would be an ideal location. But that isn't assured, depending on the answers to the above.

I can buy expediting UPE as a Hydrail test bed, but.....Measure twice, cut once.

Meanwhile, all those 12-car GO trains aren't going away, RER or no RER. There are no Hydrail designs that can handle them, and there won't be for some time. If there is something to put a rush over - it's String the wires and get those long heavy trains on traction.

- Paul
 
^ I checked into Stadler FLIRT's platform height options. They would be incompatible with UPX need:
Stadler FLIRT (Fast Light Innovative Regional Train; German: Flinker leichter innovativer Regional-Triebzug) is a diesel or electric multiple unit railcar made by Stadler Rail of Switzerland. The articulated trainset comes in units of two to six cars with two to six motorized axles. The maximum speed is 200 km/h (120 mph). Standard floor height is 57 cm (22.4 in), but 78 cm (30.7 in) high floors are also available for platform heights of 76 cm (29.9 in).
[...]
Canada
On May 3, 2018 it was announced that the city of Ottawa would be purchasing 7 diesel-electric FLIRT trains to use on its upgraded and extended Trillium Line.[24] The trains are expected to enter service in 2021.
Click to expand...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_FLIRT#Canada

OTTAWA is the place to try this, not Toronto, not Metrolinx! I've provided the argument for this at least once before. Why ssiguy insists on rewriting the plot every few pages is...?

Here again, from my post a page back:
Zero-emission train from San Bernardino to Redlands would be first in North America

By STEVE SCAUZILLO | sscauzillo@scng.com | San Gabriel Valley Tribune
PUBLISHED: June 25, 2018 at 8:00 am | UPDATED: November 23, 2018 at 11:21 am

Once the San Bernardino County Transportation Authority completes a long-awaited passenger train between San Bernardino and Redlands, the agency will test an innovative technology that could transform train travel throughout Southern California.

The agency recently started utility work for the Redlands Passenger Rail Project, a nine-mile passenger train using three cab car trains running on clean diesel technology.

The agency also received a $30 million grant from the state to convert a fourth diesel train into a zero-emission unit that can move passengers without polluting the air or releasing greenhouse gases that contribute to global climate change.

This would be accomplished by swapping out the the diesel engines with a lithium-ion battery pack and possibly adding an overhead catenary fixture at the halfway point to re-charge the train’s batteries, said Carrie Schindler, director of transit and rail programs for the SBCTA.

Though still experimental, if the technology is successful, it would be the first battery-operated passenger train in North America, she said.

RDF-L-RAILLINE-06224.jpg

[...]
Click to expand...
Post
#1,186
Access the post for the complete article.

As stated just a page back, if this is a dud, it's merely a matter of replacing the power module or re-configuring the existing one. Transpo OC are going to be running the same model, different power module. Any loss on anyone's part will be absolutely minimal, and compatibility of platform height, etc is ensured.

There are no hydrail conversions suitable for UPX at this time for a number of reasons, not least meeting the needed regs, let alone standard couplers et al.

Get on with building catenary! The farce of not doing so has gone on too long. Something to keep in mind is that although Ontario is reputed to have expensive electricity, it's in fact abundant and priced at about the middle of North Am jurisdictions. Cheap by world standards. The case for Ontario to go Hydrail pales compared to a place like NZ.

But let's try a Hydrail Stadler! In Ottawa. FLIRT not yet available with a Hydrogen cell in the power module?
[...]
With the order of the Zillertal Railway, Stadler Rail is investing in the new and innovative technology of the electric rail drive with on-board power supply with hydrogen fuel cells.

This on the background of the upcoming large tenders for diesel replacement in DE (Frankfurt Taunusbahnen, Bavaria, etc.), NL, NO, DK; the announcement by England to convert the entire rail diesel network to hydrogen operation by 2040 and the Canadian plans to convert to hydrogen service for the GO suburban trains in Toronto. More project announcements from around the world are likely to follow.

When does Stadler Rail introduce the hydrogen version of the FLIRT 160 and 200 and the KISS? Even in (rail track-)city traffic, there are likely to be opportunities for hydrogen technology in the near future.

The entrepreneurial decision of Stadler Rail for “Future Hydrogen” deserves respect!
Click to expand...
https://hydropole.ch/en/stadler-rai...-fuer-die-neuen-zuege-mit-wasserstoffantrieb/

Actually a module that runs on Hyperbole might be apt...but I digress.
 
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Honestly... If we need to test Hydrail in the GTA writ (ridiculously) large, how about Buffalo?

But seriously, aside from the attempt to turn this into a Canadian technology project, commuter rail makes a lot of sense in the Buffalo - Niagara Falls corridor, Buffalo's got the same advantages as a test site as Toronto, the service would be on a much more manageable scale than anything needed here and the new FRA rules make the regulatory environment a lot more certain for the kind of equipment that has actually been looked at to date. It even ties in to GO nicely now we've got (sort of) full service to Niagara. I actually think this is a much better idea than trying to force this into GO at this stage.

For that matter, if you extend the thing east to the airport (on a corridor thats almost entirely abandoned trackbed) commuter rail, sold as electrified with hydrail, massively improves the prospects for getting the second Metro Rail line eventually built.

Buffalo Hydrail.png
 
Bureaucromancer said:
Honestly... If we need to test Hydrail in the GTA writ (ridiculously) large, how about Buffalo?
Click to expand...
If you wish it to be the US, there's already many *extant* systems, let alone ones nascent to arrange a test on.
Once the San Bernardino County Transportation Authority completes a long-awaited passenger train between San Bernardino and Redlands, the agency will test an innovative technology that could transform train travel throughout Southern California.
Click to expand...
- linked above.
The point is made: Why should Ontario spend a penny on this when others *appear* to be doing it and we can learn from their models and experience? One Presto Card is enough proof to show it's best to let others take the lead, and then we learn from their mistakes.
North Carolina pioneering hydrail in USA | Hydrogen Cars Now
https://www.hydrogencarsnow.com › Hydrail
Sep 4, 2018 - NC's are expected to become the first intercity hydrail trains in the New World. Germany and other EU countries have committed to hydrail implementation. The northernmost German State, Schleswig-Holstein, will replace all its diesel traction with hydrail (using mostly wind-turbine-sourced hydrogen) by the year 2025.
Click to expand...
I've got to hand it to the Hydrail Hype Machine. Their superlatives just keep on comin'. Too bad they can't get their facts right, but alas...
 
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I took my dog Hitch to the dog park today and met some of the regulars. One brought up his work and he works for a trucking company and he mentioned hydrogen. He said that the company is hoping to begin to transfer all it's local routes to hydrogen trucks. He said it is a discussion many in the trucking industry are having and they hope to begin the conversion of it's currrent fleet in about 2 years. He said that it is becoming a common conversation amongst operators and noted the new hydrail train in Germany and even knew about the brand new UK announcement of 100 diesel trains being converted to hydrogen. He said hydrogen rail is also a 'quiet conversation' at both CN & CP.

He said that every company has tried to reduce it's emissions while simultaneously trying to save money and be practical. He stated that many have hybrids, batteries, natural gas etc but have been one-offs as they were all unsure of what general direction the transportation sector would take and none wanted to make huge fleet investments in one particularly technology because it may not been viable in 10 years. He said that in the last year that mentality has changed greatly as theire is definitely a growing consensus that the future transportation technology has been quickly decided...……….hydrogen.
 
which is interesting because the only major green trucking producer i've heard of is Tesla's push for an electric Big Rig - which seems to have been getting a good bit of traction.

I imagine we will see a bit of a mix - long haul truckers will use Hydrogen as electric simply cannot provide the range, while short haul trucks will use electric, just as cars are moving towards.
 
innsertnamehere said:
which is interesting because the only major green trucking producer i've heard of is Tesla's push for an electric Big Rig - which seems to have been getting a good bit of traction.

I imagine we will see a bit of a mix - long haul truckers will use Hydrogen as electric simply cannot provide the range, while short haul trucks will use electric, just as cars are moving towards.
Click to expand...

Long-haul has a bigger issue with the lack of drivers. They are focusing on automation over "green" to solve this employment shortage. Even if they go from one off ramp to the other (and a driver does the last mile) it saves them huge dollars. Which means they can drive the vehicles longer (no mandatory sleep time for autonomous vehicles) which means no time to re-charge a battery. So they have to go for either LNG, Hydrogen or fossil fuels.

Short-haul is traditionally out for a long period as well (including if refrigerated a lot of power even when idle). They are parked during the day unloading but at facilities they do not own (customers premises). The only time they can recharge is at night. So it comes down to if they can have a big enough battery for the non-refrigerated units. So even short-haul have a serious range issue.

This is the same as battery powered trains. Do the batteries last long enough? Is there idle time during the day to recharge? If at multiple locations is the recharging costs too high?

This is why they have focused on old-school electrical and/or hydrogen for alternatives. Just like the trucking industry is focused on.
 
muller877 said:
Long-haul has a bigger issue with the lack of drivers. They are focusing on automation over "green" to solve this employment shortage. Even if they go from one off ramp to the other (and a driver does the last mile) it saves them huge dollars. Which means they can drive the vehicles longer (no mandatory sleep time for autonomous vehicles) which means no time to re-charge a battery. So they have to go for either LNG, Hydrogen or fossil fuels.

Short-haul is traditionally out for a long period as well (including if refrigerated a lot of power even when idle). They are parked during the day unloading but at facilities they do not own (customers premises). The only time they can recharge is at night. So it comes down to if they can have a big enough battery for the non-refrigerated units. So even short-haul have a serious range issue.

This is the same as battery powered trains. Do the batteries last long enough? Is there idle time during the day to recharge? If at multiple locations is the recharging costs too high?

This is why they have focused on old-school electrical and/or hydrogen for alternatives. Just like the trucking industry is focused on.
Click to expand...
The Tesla Semi apparently has an 800km range - I would be extremely surprised if local shipping does that ever in a single day.
 
Why is electrification a priority? I would think the focus would be better spent on freight train bypasses, doubling the tracks to Kitchener-London, increasing service. No one cares what's powering the engine, they just want to reliably get to work and home.

I suppose from a climate change view we want the power for the trains to be generated elsewhere than in the train itself, but one or two diesel-electric generators pulling hundreds of people is not a bad carbon foot print.
 
Admiral Beez said:
Why is electrification a priority? I would think the focus would be better spent on freight train bypasses, doubling the tracks to Kitchener-London, increasing service. No one cares what's powering the engine, they just want to reliably get to work and home.

I suppose from a climate change view we want the power for the trains to be generated elsewhere than in the train itself, but one or two diesel-electric generators pulling hundreds of people is not a bad carbon foot print.
Click to expand...

Carbon reduction is gravy, but it isn’t the meat and potatoes.

The advantage that makes it all worthwhile is acceleration/deceleration. You can run more trains on shorter headways, you can shorten trip times, and you can insert stops into schedules without adding as much to the overall trip length. In the extreme you can even save on track if the whole line runs more nimbly.

Twelve car GO trains are at the heavy end of the train domain. Running and stopping them more speedily at peak is a big win. And, the off peak service is better served by EMU style equipment.

- Paul
 
ssiguy2 said:
I took my dog Hitch to the dog park today and met some of the regulars. One brought up his work and he works for a trucking company and he mentioned hydrogen. He said that the company is hoping to begin to transfer all it's local routes to hydrogen trucks. He said it is a discussion many in the trucking industry are having and they hope to begin the conversion of it's currrent fleet in about 2 years. He said that it is becoming a common conversation amongst operators and noted the new hydrail train in Germany and even knew about the brand new UK announcement of 100 diesel trains being converted to hydrogen. He said hydrogen rail is also a 'quiet conversation' at both CN & CP.

He said that every company has tried to reduce it's emissions while simultaneously trying to save money and be practical. He stated that many have hybrids, batteries, natural gas etc but have been one-offs as they were all unsure of what general direction the transportation sector would take and none wanted to make huge fleet investments in one particularly technology because it may not been viable in 10 years. He said that in the last year that mentality has changed greatly as theire is definitely a growing consensus that the future transportation technology has been quickly decided...……….hydrogen.
Click to expand...

Intra-city delivery vehicles certainly make sense for conversion, much more-so than long-haul vehicles. Add to the fact that much of the gas used by those types of delivery vehicles is either spent on idling or stopping and starting.
 
Admiral Beez said:
How do you make hydrogen? Isn't that energy negative, in that you use more energy to make it than it creates?
Click to expand...
Depends on the process, but in almost all methods, yes. Research has been ongoing for years to find a way for 'solar radiation to split the Water molecule' (H2O) etc, etc. Ontario, contrary to common thinking, actually has a surplus of grid electricity. (Distribution remains the biggest issue at the medium and low level voltage supply level)

The reason H is being pushed is more about politics and less about science.

The best option to electrify Ontario's rails is catenary supply.
 
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