Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[DB9]

Decentralization initiate in the 80s/90s were on track until amalgamation derailed the efforts and refocused developments downtown. Hense why we have what currently is NYCC and STC. If the efforts were continued and the Sheppard line was completed to the STC
and Sheppard West, our landscape today would be vastly different.

Since amalgamation, go transit improvements, better subway signaling, steercar priority are all focused on getting people downtown. Eglinton was the first project that’s focused on getting people to the inner suburban business areas to work.

With regards to downtown investments, with 500 meter subway stops, I don’t see how it can get better than what it is given our realities.

The Scarborough subway extension is still in the drawing board and its effect will be felt 20 years out. But even this is only an upgrade to an already existing transit line.

What the inner burbs need is a completed network of transit.

With Eglinton being completed, we need to complete the DRL long and Sheppard East extension before businesses will be attracted to locate out side of the core. And the move outward will happen because nobody will pay $40/SF for rent in the core for rent if they can pay $10 out side.

This seems to be wishful thinking at best. Let's take for example Queens and Bronx NYC, which would be analogous to Scarborough. Their transit coverage is pretty decent, and yet - there aren't a lot of banks or Fortune 500 companies (with their high-paying professional jobs) decamping their offices from Manhattan to Queens or the Bronx..and Manhattan rent is "sky-high". Manhattan is booming as much as ever. The Western parts of Brooklyn are experiencing a renaissance in terms of commercial activity, but a lot of that is linked to its proximity to Manhattan (i.e. right across the East River)..

 

[Hopkins123]

What about the rest of Etobicoke? It has no subway stations north of Bloor.

This isn't as big a crisis for Etobicoke as it is for Scarborough. Look at the land usage in Etobicoke and you'd relaize this. South of Dixon is primarily SFH dwellings the whole stretch across, with south of Eglinton being particularly affluent and unlikely to rely heavily on public transit. And a great swath of northern Etobicoke is uninhabited industrial lands and where it is populated there's a cacophony of bus routes (Wilson routes - 118, 96ABD, 186 branching all over the place, come to mind).

Like I alluded to @syn before, 35 minutes from Kipling and Steeles to Kipling Stn isn't all that bad. Morningside Heights or Starspray Blvd residents are far more cut off the nearest subway.

 

[Rainforest]

Although Etobicoke didn't have any new subway station for a long time, its transit situation improved recently, and is about to improve even further:

1) As the Line 1 extension opened, Finch W and Steeles W bus routes got connected to new subway stations, shortening the ride to subway.

2) If/when Finch West LRT is built, it will shorten the trip times along Finch even further. Much of the northern Etobicoke will be within a 20 min (or less) ride to the closest subway station.

3) If/when the Eglinton LRT is extended, it will create additional connections for the middle of Etobicoke.

Scarborough, on the other hand, has far worse transit connectivity than any of the other suburbs. We need to recognize that reality, and try to fix the situation. SSE will substantially improve their connectivity.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Scarborough, on the other hand, has far worse transit connectivity than any of the other suburbs. We need to recognize that reality, and try to fix the situation. SSE will substantially improve their connectivity.

If done right...and for starters, they need to improve the STC bus terminal and reinstate the Lawrence East Bus Terminal.

 

[Towered]

Although Etobicoke didn't have any new subway station for a long time, its transit situation improved recently, and is about to improve even further:

1) As the Line 1 extension opened, Finch W and Steeles W bus routes got connected to new subway stations, shortening the ride to subway.

2) If/when Finch West LRT is built, it will shorten the trip times along Finch even further. Much of the northern Etobicoke will be within a 20 min (or less) ride to the closest subway station.

3) If/when the Eglinton LRT is extended, it will create additional connections for the middle of Etobicoke.

Scarborough, on the other hand, has far worse transit connectivity than any of the other suburbs. We need to recognize that reality, and try to fix the situation. SSE will substantially improve their connectivity.

Fair points, but Etobicoke lacks a good north-south rapid transit route. A Kipling LRT is the obvious choice.

 

[OneCity]

Fair points, but Etobicoke lacks a good north-south rapid transit route. A Kipling LRT is the obvious choice.

Agree, but its not urgent. I see Kipling similar to Markham rd as possible future North-South routes that could use rapid transit in the future. It would have solid the socio-economic impact and it would need to be implemented without upsetting other modes. There is a lot of industrial traffic along Kipling and removal of vehicle lanes would be a disaster. As someone who takes the 45 bus frequently, the 45 and express bus is actually very efficient (aside from the recent cosntruction around the station)

 

[Hopkins123]

Fair points, but Etobicoke lacks a good north-south rapid transit route. A Kipling LRT is the obvious choice.

Re-routing the 191 to serve Kipling north of Finch, instead of Martin Grove, would fix a lot of problems.

 

[BurlOak]

The only blame Harris gets is for not completing the Sheppard Subway when he had the chance. Now any average joe can invent their own justifications to discredit just how useful it'd be to hundreds of thousands of commuters daily. The Crosstown is an improvement on the nineties subway plan for Eglinton, 13 kilometres of underground transit is nothing to sneeze on. But the Liberals did fail and let down Toronto big time upon insisting that the outskirts of the Line be operated like a glorified streetcar. This is why suburbanites are pissed off and voted in droves for the Conservatives.

Trenched, elevated, tunneled, a combination of the 3... any of those outcomes through Etobicoke and Scarborough is a vast improvement over the Transit City plan.

Interesting that Eglinton at Jane/Scarlet was planned as BRT in the 1980's . Then subway in the 1990's. Then streetcar LRT in the 2000's, and now grade-separated LRT (hopefully, since the most recent study showed grade-separated to be best) in the 2010's.
It's almost like everyone has been wrong on this corridor.

Those who think subway is overkill support Harris and the PC's and dislike the NDP.
Those who think on-street LRT is not enough support Ford (and sometimes Liberals, depending on the day of the week) and dislike NDP.
Those who think on-street LRT is just right support the NDP (and sometimes Liberals, depending on the day of the week) and dislike Ford, although like Harris because if subway was started then LRT could not be built.

As such I think the best option was likely something in the middle - a grade-separated mini-metro.
http://skytrainforsurrey.org/tag/eglinton/

 

[syn]

The only blame Harris gets is for not completing the Sheppard Subway when he had the chance. Now any average joe can invent their own justifications to discredit just how useful it'd be to hundreds of thousands of commuters daily. The Crosstown is an improvement on the nineties subway plan for Eglinton, 13 kilometres of underground transit is nothing to sneeze on. But the Liberals did fail and let down Toronto big time upon insisting that the outskirts of the Line be operated like a glorified streetcar. This is why suburbanites are pissed off and voted in droves for the Conservatives.

Trenched, elevated, tunneled, a combination of the 3... any of those outcomes through Etobicoke and Scarborough is a vast improvement over the Transit City plan.

I see.

So Harris gets no blame for cancelling the Eglinton subway line when it was under construction?!

If you think the Crosstown is a glorified streetcar you have bought into the Ford propaganda hook line and sinker.

Like I alluded to @syn before, 35 minutes from Kipling and Steeles to Kipling Stn isn't all that bad. Morningside Heights or Starspray Blvd residents are far more cut off the nearest subway.

They're only 33 minutes from McCowan station.

 

[syn]

This seems to be wishful thinking at best. Let's take for example Queens and Bronx NYC, which would be analogous to Scarborough. Their transit coverage is pretty decent, and yet - there aren't a lot of banks or Fortune 500 companies (with their high-paying professional jobs) decamping their offices from Manhattan to Queens or the Bronx..and Manhattan rent is "sky-high". Manhattan is booming as much as ever. The Western parts of Brooklyn are experiencing a renaissance in terms of commercial activity, but a lot of that is linked to its proximity to Manhattan (i.e. right across the East River)..

To add to what you and @AlvinofDiaspar have posted, the entire Network 2011 plan was predicated on significant commercial growth happening in suburban centers.

It never happened because businesses simply haven't had the want nor need to locate in those locations.

The Sheppard Line has been open for 16 years now. In that time the city has seen a massive commercial and residential construction boom. The Sheppard Line has seen relatively little of that growth, despite being a full fledged underground subway.

Just like Scarborough didn't experience a boom in the 80s despite the opening of a new subway station and the RT.

This is why early subway construction in Toronto was based on actual ridership and real world demand. The Yonge Streetcar was maxed out before they decided a subway was necessary. Bloor had the city's busiest streetcar route. Moving away from that sensible approach has led to the current predicament we're in.

We know for a fact that the SSE and Sheppard extension won't justify their ridership for probably a few lifetimes at the very least. If they decided to turn the Crosstown East into a line that goes up to Malvern, loops back to the STC and then down to Kennedy, it would transform inter-Scarborough travel and provide reliable transfer free access to the Yonge Line for generations.

Instead, vanity based planning is leading to blowing all of the budget on one single stop that does nothing to address inter Scarborough travel nor does it have any real impact on regional transit into the city.

 

[steveintoronto]

Bloor had the city's busiest streetcar route.

And was in fact a forerunner of LRT in coupling streetcars together during peak to maximize throughput by reducing bunching. When even that became maxed-out, the Bloor Subway was born.


TTC MU train of A7 PCCs 4433 and 4454 prepare to turn from eastbound Danforth onto Kelvin, accessing Luttrell loop. This early 1960s photograph is from the Howard Wayt collection.

 

[vic]

And was in fact a forerunner of LRT in coupling streetcars together during peak to maximize throughput by reducing bunching. When even that became maxed-out, the Bloor Subway was born.


TTC MU train of A7 PCCs 4433 and 4454 prepare to turn from eastbound Danforth onto Kelvin, accessing Luttrell loop. This early 1960s photograph is from the Howard Wayt collection.

And in another nod to future LRT, that photo was taken in front of a place called "Crosstown"

 

[steveintoronto]

And in another nod to future LRT, that photo was taken in front of a place called "Crosstown"

Today:
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/28...238b6ed43a5e55!8m2!3d43.6894495!4d-79.2950732

 

[JSF-1]

6 CLRV's coupled together. The original SRT plan would have used CLRV's in this fashion albeit with fewer coupled trains (4?)

 

[ShonTron]

6 CLRV's coupled together. The original SRT plan would have used CLRV's in this fashion albeit with fewer coupled trains (4?)

View attachment 153753

Good photo of Wychwood Barns in its final years as a TTC facility. It was surplus once the Rogers Road and Mount Pleasant streetcars were abandoned, and was used for testing and for storage of dead streetcars and trolley buses before it was abandoned and eventually replaced by the current use.

And that's right. The SRT was going to be "streetcars like those on Queen Street" - meaning the coupled MU PCCs that operated on Queen after the Bloor-Danforth subway opened.

The TTC has struggled to explain their plans before. Had it better communicated the SRT as a modern LRT route rather than "streetcars" it might have been further ahead. And we'd have new LRV vehicles running along the route now, rather than refurbished SRT cars wrapped in blue to hide the rust as a new subway is slowly planned.