Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[MetroMan]

The scenario I am thinking goes like this.

Noon - you board a bus heading to say, Don Mills and Eglinton.
12:30 - You hang out at Don Mills and Eglinton for an hour.
1:30 - You board a southbound Don Mills Bus (an astute driver would discern that this is an unreasonable stop over, but Presto allows it). You take the Don Mills bus to Pape, get off at Spadina because you want to go to Chinatown
2:15 - grab a transfer at Spadina station, then board the streetcar
In the event of a fare inspection, you show your Spadina station transfer which has a reasonable timestamp on it.

Time based transfer rule or not, this should be two fares. But as long as there are transfer machines, people can be sneaky and pay one fare.

I don't condone this, just saying it could happen.

There will be no machines to grab a transfer from. They'll be discontinued along with the ticket booths and cash boxes.

 

[LNahid2000]

There will be no machines to grab a transfer from. They'll be discontinued along with the ticket booths and cash boxes.

There will still be transfer machines on August 26th, so people will be able to do this for a while.

 

[DSC]

There will still be transfer machines on August 26th, so people will be able to do this for a while.

Time is surely running out for starting a lengthy discussion about what will happen when someone taps on at 11.59 on 25th August. Will they or won't they get 2 hours? Sigh!

 

[LNahid2000]

Time is surely running out for starting a lengthy discussion about what will happen when someone taps on at 11.59 on 25th August. Will they or won't they get 2 hours? Sigh!

I don't know if you're being serious or not but it's obvious to me that 2 hour transfers will only work once the new code is deployed to the Presto production environment on the weekend before August 26th.

 

[nfitz]

So I can get off at Spadina station after my 2 hours are up, run some errands and then get on the Spadina streetcar illegally well after my 2 hours and if a fare inspector checks my fare at Queens Quay, showing me with an expired fare, I can just say I boarded at Spadina station's fare paid area which is why there is no tap?

They can see when and where you tapped. I suppose if you'd tapped at Airport Road and Steeles or something, you might be able to sell it. But a stale 2-hour tap starting somewhere downtown?

This isn't just a clever workaround situation. Hundreds or thousands of people a day are going to be caught on a vehicle without tapping in a fare paid area and holding an expired 2 hour fare on their card. There'll be no way to distinguish them from someone who just illegally boarded after an expired fare somewhere else along the route.

They can see when and where you tapped - I'm not sure where you think the problem is.

All fare inspectors are going to see is RED for invalid fare and GREEN for valid fare. They're not going to be doing mental gymnastics with several people on a bus/streetcar to judge if someone's story of how they're riding with an expired fare is plausible. The only solution to this is to make sure everyone always taps on every vehicle they board, even in fare paid areas.

They can see when and where you tapped. For the one case in 100 where the person points out they tapped on at X, it's not going to kill them to scroll up the history to see if it's plausible. I don't know why you'd assume they'd spend 5 minutes writing a ticket over 10 seconds drilling down further.

Though perhaps they will expedite the already approved plan to require tapping on all vehicles ... who knows.

2:15 - grab a transfer at Spadina station, then board the streetcar ...

Once Presto is fully rolled out, they will remove all the transfer machines from stations. Yes, there might be some short-term issues - but no more than forever.

 

[Leo_Chan]

They can see when and where you tapped. I suppose if you'd tapped at Airport Road and Steeles or something, you might be able to sell it. But a stale 2-hour tap starting somewhere downtown?

They can see when and where you tapped - I'm not sure where you think the problem is.

They can see when and where you tapped. For the one case in 100 where the person points out they tapped on at X, it's not going to kill them to scroll up the history to see if it's plausible. I don't know why you'd assume they'd spend 5 minutes writing a ticket over 10 seconds drilling down further.

Though perhaps they will expedite the already approved plan to require tapping on all vehicles ... who knows.

Once Presto is fully rolled out, they will remove all the transfer machines from stations. Yes, there might be some short-term issues - but no more than forever.

I’m not 100% sure about this, but I think the fare inspectors’ Presto readers only show valid/invalid on the initial tap screen. They don’t bother to check the more detail informations screens unless it fails and the customer gives an explanation. If this is true, they must change this to give more information or to act on it immediately whether it’s valid or not.

 

[mdrejhon]

The new unofficial/official recommendation will likely be, always tap everytime you transfer vehicles, to keep your transfer fresh.

Even in farepaid areas, the optional tap is free anyway if tapped within 2 hours. Go ahead and do the tap due to the timed transfer, there is no risk and there is no ambigiousness.

In the past, it was recommended not to, but now I'd tap in the timed transfer era.
Most subway trips will make you to a farepaid bus connection by 1h59min anyway, including most bus-subway-bus trips too.

It's probably still optional but riskfree in the timed transfer era, to tap again if you know your first tap was less than 2 hours ago. If you were in the subway over 2 hours then one can gamble on not doing the tap, and then giving the "farepaid area and" excuse if a King streetcar inspector sees you tapped on Vaughan subway and you never tapped on the streetcar.

But keep it simple, always tap when timed transfers begin. Makes rules easy - first and last tap is within 2 hours, and last tap is on the same vehicle you are standing in - and it's unambigiuously scotsfree.

 

[nfitz]

Ah, here's a Presto issue the 2-hour transfer won't fix.

I tapped onto a bus only 4 minutes after I tapped off at Danforth GO yesterday. But I was still charged $3. Presumably because I was at the 3 hour and 3 minute mark since my original GO tap. Presumably the system should look at the minutes since the previous tap, not the first tap - but not sure how implementable that is. Another call to TTC.

 

[nfitz]

The new unofficial/official recommendation will likely be, always tap everytime you transfer vehicles, to keep your transfer fresh.

How are you keeping it fresh?

Either it's less than 2-hours since your initial tap, and you don't need to tap in a fare-paid area.

Or it's more than 2-hours, and tapping in a fare-paid area will charge you $3.

 

[mdrejhon]

How are you keeping it fresh?

Either it's less than 2-hours since your initial tap, and you don't need to tap in a fare-paid area.

It simplifies explaining to fare inspectors. They move on quicker in ambigious situations.

There are very few situations requiring more than 1h59min between first and last tap, so if you know you are well within that, then tapping again in farepaid areas will reduce discomfort during your next inspection in any ambigious situation.

They cam see where you last tapped, and when, the reader says that.

You *don't* have to, but it doesn't hurt.

Because 30min from a "last tap" (completed transfer tap) is better than 2.5 hours from a "first tap" (skipped transfer taps of a long bus/streetcar-subway-bus/streetcar) reduces odds of explaining to fare inspectors -- say, an inexperienced one having a bad day.

The former is nobrainer zero-coffee clearcut, and the latter is ambigious

 

[nfitz]

here are very few situations requiring more than 1h59min between first and last tap, so if you know you are well within that, then tapping again in farepaid areas will reduce discomfort during your next inspection in any ambigious situation.

Today. Sure.

But soon you'll be able to start a fresh trip at 1:59 ... and if you need to transfer out-side a fare-paid area, it's a new fare. But inside a fare-paid area ... well presumably you've paid your fare already!

 

[LNahid2000]

Ah, here's a Presto issue the 2-hour transfer won't fix.

I tapped onto a bus only 4 minutes after I tapped off at Danforth GO yesterday. But I was still charged $3. Presumably because I was at the 3 hour and 3 minute mark since my original GO tap. Presumably the system should look at the minutes since the previous tap, not the first tap - but not sure how implementable that is. Another call to TTC.

View attachment 153407

This is a GO issue rather than a TTC issue, the reason being because GO closes a trip after a 3 hour window. You won't get a co-fare on any of the 905 systems either after 3 hours.

 

[nfitz]

This is a GO issue rather than a TTC issue, the reason being because GO closes a trip after a 3 hour window. You won't get a co-fare on any of the 905 systems either after 3 hours.

It's a TTC issue, if Presto isn't working as per TTC policy.

Phoned up TTC (not Presto or Metrolinx or GO), and they are refunding $1.50 and escalating internally to sort out internally.

 

[Leo_Chan]

It's a TTC issue, if Presto isn't working as per TTC policy.

Phoned up TTC (not Presto or Metrolinx or GO), and they are refunding $1.50 and escalating internally to sort out internally.

So in this case, would the 2/3 hours have started at the tap on at Exibition or the tap at Gerrard/Main?

 

[nfitz]

So in this case, would the 2/3 hours have started at the tap on at Exibition or the tap at Gerrard/Main?

Neither. They were triggered by an earlier tap at Danforth GO. Return trips on GO are virtually free, if they don't pass too many zones, and start before 3 hours after the initial trip starts.