Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

[MetroMan]

It's pretty simple.

If you tap on at 12 noon, then every tap you make between then and 2 pm is free. At 2 pm if you tap again your are charged.

There's no requirement to tap onto a streetcar or a bus in a fare paid area. If one does so at, say, 2:05 pm then you'll be charged.

I've seldom if ever seen anyone tapping onto vehicles in fare-paid areas - despite the occasional misguided suggestion from TTC to do so.

You missed a very important point.

If you didn't tap to get into a streetcar at a fare paid area, and it's been close to 2 hours after your first tap, if you're later asked to show your PRESTO card by fare inspector, it will show you illegally on the streetcar because your fare is expired. Who's to say you didn't illegally board the streetcar on the stop before the inspector got on? They have no way of knowing so you'll get charged for riding without a fare.

At the very least, fare paid areas become obsolete with the 2 hour fare. I'm not saying that the TTC is going to dismantle them but there'll have to be a public information campaign to always tap when boarding any vehicle or entering a station.

 

[nfitz]

You missed a very important point.

If you didn't tap to get into a streetcar at a fare paid area, and it's been close to 2 hours after your first tap, if you're later asked to show your PRESTO card by fare inspector, it will show you illegally on the streetcar because your fare is expired. Who's to say you didn't illegally board the streetcar on the stop before the inspector got on? They have no way of knowing so you'll get charged for riding without a fare.

They can see when and where you tapped. They know roughly when the streetcar left the terminus (or St. Clair West).

Everyone is fully aware that people will be tapping at the 1:59 mark and there trips are going to be longer than one minute. There is no intention to fine such travellers!

I suppose there might be a very rare occasion, when you've done something very bizarre, that is illegitimate, but looks legit. Though that would seem to require a lot of work ...

I think you might be overthinking this.

 

[11th]

Technically one can be on any surface routes (except route 99) without being fined if their last tap at a subway/RT station is within a reasonable time - up to the discretion of the fare inspector but say around 2hr.

 

[WillTo]

You missed a very important point.

If you didn't tap to get into a streetcar at a fare paid area, and it's been close to 2 hours after your first tap, if you're later asked to show your PRESTO card by fare inspector, it will show you illegally on the streetcar because your fare is expired. Who's to say you didn't illegally board the streetcar on the stop before the inspector got on? They have no way of knowing so you'll get charged for riding without a fare.

At the very least, fare paid areas become obsolete with the 2 hour fare. I'm not saying that the TTC is going to dismantle them but there'll have to be a public information campaign to always tap when boarding any vehicle or entering a station.

Sneaky people take a paper transfer instead of tapping when boarding within a fare paid zone.
You can't take a transfer from say, King Station, to board the King Streetcar. But you can get one at Union, board the streetcar, and provide that as your proof of payment.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Sneaky people take a paper transfer instead of tapping when boarding within a fare paid zone.
You can't take a transfer from say, King Station, to board the King Streetcar. But you can get one at Union, board the streetcar, and provide that as your proof of payment.

Paper transfers aren't going to be valid for two hours only ones on presto cards.

 

[LNahid2000]

Paper transfers aren't going to be valid for two hours only ones on presto cards.

But you can tap at a subway station at 1:59 and then get a paper transfer to continue a one way trip.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

But you can tap at a subway station at 1:59 and then get a paper transfer to continue a one way trip.

Getting a paper transfer with a presto card is pointless though. How is someone going to know that they have exactly one minute left before their 2 hour transfer ends?

 

[LNahid2000]

Getting a paper transfer with a presto card is pointless though. How is someone going to know that they have exactly one minute left before their 2 hour transfer ends?

By checking the time when they first tap their card?

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

By checking the time when they first tap their card?

Most people probably won't do that. Most likely there will be a bit of leeway of a few minutes

 

[11th]

But you can tap at a subway station at 1:59 and then get a paper transfer to continue a one way trip.

There's a way to stop this loop hole. Remove all transfer machines and have the collectors issue transfers to cash/tickets/tokens users. It'll be the same existing process as on surface routes.

 

[MetroMan]

They can see when and where you tapped. They know roughly when the streetcar left the terminus (or St. Clair West).

Everyone is fully aware that people will be tapping at the 1:59 mark and there trips are going to be longer than one minute. There is no intention to fine such travellers!

I suppose there might be a very rare occasion, when you've done something very bizarre, that is illegitimate, but looks legit. Though that would seem to require a lot of work ...

I think you might be overthinking this.

So I can get off at Spadina station after my 2 hours are up, run some errands and then get on the Spadina streetcar illegally well after my 2 hours and if a fare inspector checks my fare at Queens Quay, showing me with an expired fare, I can just say I boarded at Spadina station's fare paid area which is why there is no tap?

This isn't just a clever workaround situation. Hundreds or thousands of people a day are going to be caught on a vehicle without tapping in a fare paid area and holding an expired 2 hour fare on their card. There'll be no way to distinguish them from someone who just illegally boarded after an expired fare somewhere else along the route.

All fare inspectors are going to see is RED for invalid fare and GREEN for valid fare. They're not going to be doing mental gymnastics with several people on a bus/streetcar to judge if someone's story of how they're riding with an expired fare is plausible. The only solution to this is to make sure everyone always taps on every vehicle they board, even in fare paid areas.

 

[MetroMan]

There's a way to stop this loop hole. Remove all transfer machines and have the collectors issue transfers to cash/tickets/tokens users. It'll be the same existing process as on surface routes.

Yes. Transfer machines in subway stations will be removed once cash boxes in the stations are discontinued next year. I believe buses will still maintain them and bus drivers will continue to give out transfers. Streetcar drivers are gradually stopping this as new streetcars with ticket machines replace the old fleet. Transfers will have to be PRESTO RFID enabled so they can allow riders to transfer into subway stations which will no longer have ticket booths with an attendant. You'll have to tap in with your disposable PRESTO transfer since you can't just show it to an attendant.

 

[DSC]

There's a way to stop this loop hole. Remove all transfer machines and have the collectors issue transfers to cash/tickets/tokens users. It'll be the same existing process as on surface routes.

There will apparently be NO COLLECTORS in subway stations in late 2019 - all will become wandering 'station ambassadors' and if you want a ticket you will need to get it from a machine.

 

[WillTo]

Paper transfers aren't going to be valid for two hours only ones on presto cards.

The scenario I am thinking goes like this.

Noon - you board a bus heading to say, Don Mills and Eglinton.
12:30 - You hang out at Don Mills and Eglinton for an hour.
1:30 - You board a southbound Don Mills Bus (an astute driver would discern that this is an unreasonable stop over, but Presto allows it). You take the Don Mills bus to Pape, get off at Spadina because you want to go to Chinatown
2:15 - grab a transfer at Spadina station, then board the streetcar
In the event of a fare inspection, you show your Spadina station transfer which has a reasonable timestamp on it.

Time based transfer rule or not, this should be two fares. But as long as there are transfer machines, people can be sneaky and pay one fare.

I don't condone this, just saying it could happen.

 

[rbt]

The scenario I am thinking goes like this.

Noon - you board a bus heading to say, Don Mills and Eglinton.
12:30 - You hang out at Don Mills and Eglinton for an hour.
1:30 - You board a southbound Don Mills Bus (an astute driver would discern that this is an unreasonable stop over, but Presto allows it). You take the Don Mills bus to Pape, get off at Spadina because you want to go to Chinatown
2:15 - grab a transfer at Spadina station, then board the streetcar
In the event of a fare inspection, you show your Spadina station transfer which has a reasonable timestamp on it.

Time based transfer rule or not, this should be two fares. But as long as there are transfer machines, people can be sneaky and pay one fare.

This scenario, without the Spadina station transfer, is allowed as a single fare by the new fare rules.

What's still up in the air is whether TTC will require taps for all transfers, including within fare-paid zones at stations. At one point this was the intention and fare checkers would confirm whether a valid tap occurred on the current vehicle (not route; vehicle). I expect this will still become policy at some point in the near future (within a couple years).