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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

syn said:
Why is Little Caesars treating the citizens of downtown like second class citizens?!
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Caesar wasn't "For the People" or one of "The Folks"...albeit Doug thought it was "seize her" all along. What Doug and Caesar do have in common is throwing sacrifices to the lions, and a 'buck a bear'...errr...'beer'.
 
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steveintoronto said:
Buck a vote. Appears it worked. It used to be $20.
Doug Ford accused of 'vote buying' after being filmed handing out $2o
bills to public housing residents

But hey, every Toronto municipal taxpayer is paying for it with a special levy. What other Toronto transit project received that treatment?
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But the first part of your post has nothing to do with this project. Whatsoever

There is a hell of a lot of other politicians who support the subway. Even most losing Mayoral candidates supported it the last 2 elections. I get theres reason to complain with Ford, as there is for all leaders. But this isn't the thread, simply because you don't agree with the decision. This site needs a Ford derangement venting thread, its going from bad to worse.

For my part I shouldn't respond to any of these posts, but it never ends. More than happy to discuss in a politics thread.
 
OneCity said:
But the first part of your post has nothing to do with this project. Whatsoever
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Follow the string, but since you want to pick a point with me, you're on. Quote politicians all you like, it just delineates what a losing position you take when it comes to reality.

Poll after poll shows it fails the Toronto wide test. What do you count? Those that pay tax, or those that squander it? And it fails with any independent professional analysis too. Which is exactly why Council and other politicos refuse to have an audit done for it. Don't start swinging at me, I'm a Conservative, my father was an elected Conservative, and I've only ever voted Conservative in this nation.
March 20, 2017
A Scathing Critique of Transit Planning in Toronto
Home /Infrastructure, Policy & Planning, Transportation/A Scathing Critique of Transit Planning in Toronto

Gordon Price
Toronto
Tamim Raad draws attention to the comments on Toronto transit planning by those who were there in the ‘golden age,’ in this Globe and Mail article:

Toronto’s transit system was once such a wonder that, even into the 1980s, people came from around the world to study how it planned infrastructure projects, how it executed them and how it operated.

That so-called “golden age” also produced transit experts so revered, they got to travel the globe in return. For some, their views have been valued well past retirement age – though not so much in their hometown.

Three of them – Richard Soberman, Ed Levy and David Crowley – recently gathered for lunch and a gab. The Scarborough subway, which is to be voted on again March 28, was not the focus, but it came up often.

“We have to be careful; this idea there was a golden age is a bit of myth,” says Dr. Soberman, former chair of civil engineering at the University of Toronto and lead author of many seminal transportation reports dating to the early 1960s. “We did very good things – on time, on budget – but we made big politically driven errors back then, too. Building a subway [Spadina] on an expressway median was a huge one. Putting the Queen subway on Bloor has turned out to be a mistake.”

“Precisely,” says Mr. Levy, jumping in. Mr. Levy, a planner, engineer and author of Rapid Transit in Toronto, A Century of Plans, Projects, Politics and Paralysis, says that great cities that have been able to sustainably expand subways kept building from the middle out (and they didn’t tunnel in low-density areas).

By not doing Queen right after Yonge, “we missed a crucial starting point for network-building. We’ve never been able to get back to a logical order,” Mr. Levy says. “Call it the Queen line, relief line, whatever, the whole GTA has needed this piece of infrastructure for decades, but politicians keep wasting scarce capital on frills and vote buying.”

“Toronto’s biggest transit problem,” says Mr. Crowley, who specializes in data analysis, travel market research and demand forecasting, “is we’ve overloaded core parts of the subway. We’d basically done that on lower Yonge 30 years ago, when I was still at the TTC. We have to relearn the importance of downtown to the whole region, the whole country. We’re in danger of killing the golden goose.”


Noting that trains from Scarborough and North York are often full before crossing into the old city, Mr. Crowley says that, “data and demand patterns are telling us the stupidest thing we could do is make any of our lines longer [before putting another subway through the core].”

“Much as I like the Eglinton Crosstown idea, and it’s overdue, too,” Mr. Levy says, “I fear what it will do to Yonge-line crowding. Again, the sequence is so wrong.”

Are bureaucrats shirking their responsibility to speak truth to power?

“We sure needed [TTC chief executive] Andy Byford to be blunt about this Scarborough subway plan,” Mr. Levy says. “He should have spoken up.”

Might the reticence be what some call “the Webster effect”? (Mr. Byford’s predecessor, Gary Webster, was fired for objecting to then-mayor Rob Ford’s insistence the entire Eglinton Crosstown go underground).

“Unwillingness to speak up isn’t new,” Dr. Soberman says, citing pressure from North York politicians in the early 1970s that spurred two well-regarded TTC executives to vote for the Spadina subway in the expressway corridor “even though they knew only idiots would think it was a good idea.”

The difference is, he says, “back then politicians listened, even if they didn’t always take our advice. They respected facts. Now they only want confirmation of their preconceived ideas, and too many people [bureaucrats and private-sector consultants], who should be providing objective professional advice are playing along with the game.”

“On Scarborough,” Mr. Levy says, “you won’t find a single independent transit professional who can support this, but they won’t say so publicly. The three of us can say this stuff without recrimination; we’re retired.”

“The minute the politicians speak,” Mr. Crowley says, “the civil service and the consulting community are happy to say, ‘Oh, that’s a great idea. Yes, let’s study that.’ I started to see this trend in the 1980s at the TTC. I’d raised serious, fact-based concerns about Sheppard-subway ridership forecasts and the role of the project. It upset people. I was told, ‘You’re never supposed to do that – you have to play along.’ “That’s when I knew it was time to get out,” says Mr. Crowley, who went on to a career with international private-sector firms. “This Scarborough boondoggle, if we were talking about gas plants, it could bring down a government, but transit is ‘special’ for reasons I don’t understand.”

“We’ve also overestimated the potential of these sub-downtowns, especially on jobs,” Mr. Levy says. “It’s twisted our spending priorities.”

“Transportation planning has become a bullshit field,” says Dr. Soberman. “A civil engineer wouldn’t say a bridge is going to be safe if his calculations show it might fall down, but a transportation planner can say anything. There’s no downside other than you waste public funds.”

“And the more we waste public funds, the harder it is to raise tax revenue for transit needs,” Mr. Levy says. “We’ve badly underfunded transit, but people don’t trust politicians to spend money well. When was the last time we did anything good? The Kipling and Kennedy extensions? That’s nearly 40 years ago. Most people recognized Sheppard was a mistake, but people who learned from it are ignored. It’s often impossible to even get good ideas considered. Politicians have a role to play, but …”

“It’s always been political – always will be – but we need to get smarter about where politicians join the process,” Dr. Soberman says. “If you don’t generate good ideas, you’re guaranteed bad results. If you generate good ideas and they’re ignored, you won’t do any better. Current politicians are comfortable ignoring the people most likely to generate the best ideas. And the media, you guys, haven’t always helped. This subway-versus-LRT debate was simplistic and maddening. Scarborough deserves better transit, but the best options aren’t even being considered.” (Dr. Soberman would simply buy new rolling stock for the SRT and rebuild a bend to accommodate new vehicles.)

“Maybe we’re part of the problem,” Mr. Crowley says. “If the professionals had done a better job diagnosing problems, identifying prescriptions and educating politicians and the public on issues and options, politicians wouldn’t have moved into the vacuum.”

Getting in the last word, Mr. Soberman says, “too many people in positions of power don’t seem to know what they don’t know. Whether it’s at the province and Metrolinx or at the city and TTC, if we don’t figure out new governance models, we’ll never regain the public trust and Toronto will suffer for generations.”
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https://pricetags.ca/2017/03/20/a-scathing-critique-of-transit-planning-in-toronto/

A real Conservative would welcome an audit. So what are you so scared of?
 
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OneCity said:
3rd world cheese doesn't go well with craft beer
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And since you're participating in the food fight, your shoe lace is undone. You exquisitely make the point that you love to throw things around as much as anyone else, until it doesn't go your way.
OneCity said:
But the first part of your post has nothing to do with this project. Whatsoever
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Wrong kind of cheese perhaps?
Council rejects request to study whether Scarborough subway is good value for money
By JENNIFER PAGLIAROCity Hall Bureau
Wed., Dec. 6, 2017
[...]
“Before we invest billions of dollars, we should have the most relevant, basic facts in front of us about whether or not there is value for every dollar invested. Also that we are providing the kind of service that residents need,” Matlow said on the council floor. “We are elected to not only represent our communities but represent the people of Toronto and be responsible with every dollar that we’re entrusted with.”
[...]
This week, outgoing TTC CEO Andy Byford told CBC’s Matt Galloway he had “no objection” to the study being done.
[...]
And former chief planner Jennifer Keesmaat tweeting Wednesday morning: “For a capital project of $3.56B that continues to see cost escalations, there is a tipping point at which the cost-benefit analysis becomes questionable. Responsible government would continually, honestly assess this question and have alternatives in hand.”
[...]
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https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...arborough-subway-is-good-value-for-money.html

But when Ford wants to do it "line by line" that's OK? Then he'd best do it for Council too on the SSE since he's so concerned about "value for money" and how much 44>47 Councillor increase is going to cost.

It seems someone has their priorities stuck where they shouldn't be...
 
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steveintoronto said:
And since you're participating in the food fight, your shoe lace is undone. You exquisitely make the point that you love to throw things around as much as anyone else, until it doesn't go your way.
Wrong kind of cheese perhaps?

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...arborough-subway-is-good-value-for-money.html

But when Ford wants to do it "line by line" that's OK? Then he'd best do it for Council too on the SSE since he's so concerned about "value for money" and how much 44>47 Councillor increase is going to cost.

It seems someone has their priorities stuck where they shouldn't be...
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Again as I said I shouldn't have responded back to the off topic clutter. I also recommended moving any further discussion about Politician to a politics thread or if you really want to debate the merits of the SSE I'll meet you there
 
steveintoronto said:
Right here is fine. "ttc-scarborough-subway-extension-formerly-lrt-replacement-city-of-toronto-design-phase".

The SSE audit: Yes or No?
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Much has been regurgitated in the Merits thread...

But if were talking about Fords 3 stop plan the answer your question NO. If the small minority opposition still bitching were so overly concerned for an audit this outrage should have came out in the Miller years to prevent todays issue. More importantly value is not measure only in $. Value to an outsider isn't the same value to people who live here.
  • I have zero interest to see more time wasted simply to appease a small opposing minority group who didnt get their way to dictate transit here.
  • We could likely end up going back to Robs LRT line as the best "value", either LRT plan would be impacting the current RER and seeing a resounding political fall-out worse than today. Not the outcome anyone needs.
  • I really like the 3 stop plan as the best alignment for the future long term benefits. Extensively discussed
  • Would have been happy with a compromise to alleviate the transfer but to me the extra cost which will be negligible long term and a far better line. Vaughan Centre, North York Centre.... Atleast connect the Centre with infrastructure the City these people pay taxes in.
  • 99% political support from all Leaders and Scarborough politicians since transit City was overturned. And now all of the sudden we need an audit when were not hacking in LRT?
Oh and as a Scarborough resident who has seen voters concerns talked over by a handful of uncompromising Downtown Left and their associate bias media promoting an unaudited LRT plan I have no issues moving on and seeing the most expensive plan albeit most effective plan built against the cries. Well deserved
 
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syn said:
Torontonians weigh in on their transit priorities

"A plurality of poll respondents, or 37 per cent, said the relief line should be the TTC’s highest priority project. That was double the support for the second most popular project, the Scarborough subway extension, for which just 18 per cent of respondents said should be the priority."
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Another poll done for the Star. :rolleyes: Could be accurate but given the agenda id heavily discount it, but even if by chance it was accurate, trying to beat down or kill the priority in our most neglected suburb isn't the best avenue to get others built. No one in Scarborough is rallying against other plans...Yet

But the sad idea we need to prioritise Downtown over everything and not respect other areas voters is now being used against the people politically and were seeing the opposite now happening. I understand it sucks being talked over with a political agenda full of BS. Scarborough knows all about it, and this was far overdue
 
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OneCity said:
Another poll done for the Star. :rolleyes: Could be accurate given the agenda id heavily discount it, but even if highly accurate trying to beat down or kill the priority in our most neglected suburb isn't the best avenue to get others built. No one in Scarborough is rallying against other plans...Yet

But the sad idea we need to prioritise Downtown over everything and not respect other areas voters is now being used against the people politically and were seeing the opposite now happening. Sucks being talked over with agenda BS.. Scarborough knows all about it, and was far overdue.
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Ya know, you think you can dictate the debate, and then proceed to dismiss others' ideas, studies, professional opinions and *MONEY*.

Tell you what there, pay for it yourself. I don't see a city wide levy for any other transit project, do you?

And if you think I'm a Leftie, you're the other side of Genghis Khan. You're an insulting fool.

Audit: Yes or No.
Backgrounder
Independent Financial Commission of Inquiry and External Line-by-Line Audit of Government Spending
July 17, 2018 12:45 P.M.

Office of the Premier

Today Premier Doug Ford, Finance Minister Vic Fedeli and President of the Treasury Board Peter Bethlenfalvy announced a plan to restore trust and accountability back to Ontario's public finances by launching an Independent Financial Commission of Inquiry and an external line-by-line audit of government spending.

Below is a summary of how the inquiry and audit will work:

What will the Independent Financial Commission of Inquiry do?

  • The inquiry will look back at Ontario's public finances and government accounting practices in order to have a clear idea of where taxpayers' money is being spent and inform the 2017-18 Public Accounts
  • The inquiry will operate with complete independence from the Government of Ontario, and is established under the Public Inquiries Act, 2009
  • It will provide advice and recommendations on the Province's current fiscal reality and budgetary position for the current fiscal year (2018-19) and beyond
  • The deadline for the inquiry's final report will be August 30
  • The inquiry will be provided with a dedicated budget and staff resources necessary to meet this deadline
  • [...]
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Bring it on, for the SSE!
 
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steveintoronto said:
Ya know, you think you can dictate the debate, and then proceed to dismiss others' ideas, studies, professional opinions and *MONEY*.

Tell you what there OneMan, pay for it yourself. I don't see a city wide levy for any other transit project, do you?

And if you think I'm a Leftie, you're the other side of Genghis Khan. You're an insulting fool.

Audit: Yes or No.
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I didn't dictate anything. Voters did. If enough people agree maybe more Politicians would agree with you. They don't.

More importantly I never called you a Leftie or any direct label for that matter so don't bother. I refer to the majority of Politicians from the Dowtown Left who oppose a better connection, although you seem very aligned with this group atleast on this topic

I'm a "Leftie" in many aspects and so are many Scarborough residents and many Politicians who support a better connection for us. Liberals and NDP . You may be mislead bigtime from the Star & Metroland but theres a lot of us that wanted better. Its really not even close.
 
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