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2018 Ontario Provincial Election Discussion

I know you were trying to get us to join your don't vote campaign...

I wasn't. I would never try to get anyone to join any of my campaigns......most of what I get up to probably isn't safe.

I don't tell anyone how to vote because it's not my business how people vote. I find the whole exercise almost meaningless anyway so if my next provincial government boss is Ford or Wynne or Horwath or whoever the Communist is (ok, that would be sort of fucky, granted) it doesn't make a difference to me. My life goes on and on (knock on wood) and on and my lifestyle remains as it ever has, my own.

I mean, I haven't even told @BurlOak that they shouldn't vote for the Ford goon crew. Have at it, it's your vote.

I just like pointing out things I find comical and/or absurd, that's all and the pressure to vote strategically due to a combination of perceived necessity, lack of real choice, and one really shitty electoral system is--the whole of it--absurd as all hell.

It's verging on Potemkin democracy, to be honest.

People claimed they wanted change so they're going to be voting for the same old shit out of fear. Great change! I'm strapped and ready.
 
On the other hand, this could be the final straw for the first-past-the-post system and really rally progressives around electoral reform.

Why would this instance be?

The mathematical bullshit happens every single election. What will make this different?
 
They're all bad. We haven't had a government make an net gain on government debt since before the 1980s.

Ontario-Debt.jpg
Surprise - no Party is perfect.

Look at Debt to GDP.

NDP. Up from 13% to 30%.
PC. Down from 30% to 27%.
Liberal. Up from 27% to 40% (I think I saw a more recent number at 38%).

So it's basically as everyone suspects. The Liberals are bad, the NDP is worse, and the PC's are ok.

fe0407_ontariodebt_c_jr.jpeg
 
It's all sooo unfair...

View attachment 144863

I got the same email. I noticed though you cut off the page right where they go on to explain why the pollsters are "lying"...

Their own data shows this is a lie.

Buried on page 11 of their report it says the raw numbers are this:

PC: 40%

NDP: 36%

They “weighted” the NDP up 11 points.

Why?

The pollsters and the media are ganging up to try to keep us down.

They are scared of what happens when the people get a voice.

Because it doesn’t fit their narrative.

But Drake, don't worry.

We're going to win this election.

And we'll get this province back on track.

We'll get spending under control and help those who need it most.

Lower taxes, cheaper hydro, and more affordable gas.

That's what this is about.

That, and a bit of common sense.

If the goal of the media and pollsters is voter suppression of likely PC voters, it's only fair game for the PCs and Doug to fight back. After all, it isn't Doug's campaign that has seeming anti-Semites and anti-military candidates attached to it!
 
Yeah, it's missing the smoking gun of how indeed the media and pollsters are conspiring to stop Ford.

After all, it isn't Doug's campaign that has seeming anti-Semites and anti-military candidates attached to it!

Yeah, Doug "how can I be anti-Semitic? my doctor is Jewish, my lawyer is Jewish and my accountant is Jewish...oh and my wife is too" Ford is going to protect us from anti-Semitism.

Yes, and the guy who picked the hate-monger Andrew Lawton to run in London is such a protector of a tolerant, multicultural society. Please.
 
Surprise - no Party is perfect.

Look at Debt to GDP.

NDP. Up from 13% to 30%.
PC. Down from 30% to 27%.
Liberal. Up from 27% to 40% (I think I saw a more recent number at 38%).

So it's basically as everyone suspects. The Liberals are bad, the NDP is worse, and the PC's are ok.

fe0407_ontariodebt_c_jr.jpeg

I've found the Federal Conservatives often get a pass for their fiscal record because of the recession.

I'm not sure why we don't stop to consider the Harris governments governed during very prosperous times for the entire continent. The Ontario Liberals, like the Federal Conservatives, had to deal with the a worldwide recession.

Would a Conservative government have been much better over the past 15 years? I'm not so sure about that.
 
I've found the Federal Conservatives often get a pass for their fiscal record because of the recession.

I'm not sure why we don't stop to consider the Harris governments governed during very prosperous times for the entire continent. The Ontario Liberals, like the Federal Conservatives, had to deal with the a worldwide recession.

Would a Conservative government have been much better over the past 15 years? I'm not so sure about that.
I have posted countless times how the Federal Conservatives increased debt by 26%, while at the same time the Provincial Liberals increased it by 106%.

The other thing to remember is that Harris had to deal with a Federal Liberal government that was cutting transfers, while Harper was increasing them by well above the inflation rate.

DYcSCViWkAAMjeb.jpg:large
 
So, you support the party that backs Andrew Lawton and wanted to make Tanya Granic Allen a cabinet minister?

https://ricochet.media/en/2217/why-canadas-white-supremacists-want-doug-ford-to-win

Look who supports Doug. Not sure why though, since his base is very multicultural.
Ethnic and new immigrant communities are some of the most conservative minded folks around.
Surprise - no Party is perfect.

Look at Debt to GDP.

NDP. Up from 13% to 30%.
PC. Down from 30% to 27%.
Liberal. Up from 27% to 40% (I think I saw a more recent number at 38%).

So it's basically as everyone suspects. The Liberals are bad, the NDP is worse, and the PC's are ok.

fe0407_ontariodebt_c_jr.jpeg
Good info. So, since no ON government is ever going to pay down this debt, why is it considered important to voters?
 
Because we pay interest on it. If the debt is incurred to fund construction of a truly productive asset that yields a future benefit stream it makes sense. If it’s used to fund current consumption then it doesn’t. So borrow once to build a hospital, sure. Borrow year after year ad infinitum to operate it, not so much. Even if the principal will never be paid down, there’s the ever increasing interest bill to consider. There’s a strong likelihood that rates will rise and recessions will continue every once in a while. So it’s imprudent to plan for large deficits when we’re at the top of the economic cycle and the near-bottom of the rates cycle. Sure, Ontario borrows mostly fixed, but every year we’re going to refi $30 to $40 billion of maturing obligations, and higher rates will eventually make this a painful exercise.
 
Because we pay interest on it. If the debt is incurred to fund construction of a truly productive asset that yields a future benefit stream it makes sense. If it’s used to fund current consumption then it doesn’t. So borrow once to build a hospital, sure. Borrow year after year ad infinitum to operate it, not so much. Even if the principal will never be paid down, there’s the ever increasing interest bill to consider. There’s a strong likelihood that rates will rise and recessions will continue every once in a while. So it’s imprudent to plan for large deficits when we’re at the top of the economic cycle and the near-bottom of the rates cycle. Sure, Ontario borrows mostly fixed, but every year we’re going to refi $30 to $40 billion of maturing obligations, and higher rates will eventually make this a painful exercise.
Spend in a recession and pay down in a boom sound like an optimal plan.
Unfortunately, few governments actually follow through on the second part. It is much easier to just continue spending (times are never quite as good as we would like) and let someone else worry about the debt at a later date.
 
Because we pay interest on it. If the debt is incurred to fund construction of a truly productive asset that yields a future benefit stream it makes sense. If it’s used to fund current consumption then it doesn’t. So borrow once to build a hospital, sure. Borrow year after year ad infinitum to operate it, not so much. Even if the principal will never be paid down, there’s the ever increasing interest bill to consider. There’s a strong likelihood that rates will rise and recessions will continue every once in a while. So it’s imprudent to plan for large deficits when we’re at the top of the economic cycle and the near-bottom of the rates cycle. Sure, Ontario borrows mostly fixed, but every year we’re going to refi $30 to $40 billion of maturing obligations, and higher rates will eventually make this a painful exercise.

I think the key to resolving this though is to get a consensus across party lines and ideology.

Let's agree to raise taxes, and make government more efficient and between the two run a modest surplus in good times which will reduce the absolute debt modestly and the debt to GDP substantially.

- Raise sales tax by 2 points to 15% generate roughly 6.5B in annual revenue allowing for elasticity. Add normal, modest, GDP growth and we're back to balance, give or take the hydro issue.

- Merge the Separate and Public school systems, AND abolish school boards all together, as Quebec is doing. Its mostly run by the MOE anyway, why pretend otherwise.
This should, conservatively, produce a net savings of 1.5B per year (up to 2.5 is realistic).

Let's use that to actually pay down debt.

Then when actual savings accrue from lower interest payments, split the benefit 1/2 to social programs and 1/2 to a lower taxes.

What often gets missed by those w/Conservative leanings is that you require by-in from those who favour robust social programs, environmental protections and the like, which aren't free.

Those on the left, might be rightly accused of not understanding the 'middle' lacks enthusiasm for a hectoring nanny-state (see Beer Stores amongst other issues.) and values fiscal probity.

When Harper proposed raising the retirement age to 67 he was proposing something incredibly sensible; but failed to achieve buy in, because he wanted to bank 100% of the savings, rather than reinvest some in more generous pensions/retirement income support.

I think splitting the difference would have been political genius and good public policy. Take half the savings from a higher retirement age and use them to add $100 a month to OAS and raise CPP to cover 37% of income instead of the 33% its now moving to.

Use the rest of the savings to reduce payroll tax of individuals and business. Win-Win.

Where parties and ideologues refuse to accommodate the desires or concerns of a plurality or even majority of Canadians they harm their own political interest and general social interest too.
 
The act they had at City Hall isn't working.

Him and his brother were actually a good team. His brother had what a lot of people would consider an 'everyman' quality (I personally didn't see it that way), while Doug didn't have that charm but did have a certain 'seriousness' (for lack of a better term) which gave Rob some sort of legitimacy.

Without that dynamic, Doug just seems shady and is having a difficult time dealing with all the controversy.
This is something that I have been saying for a while, Dougie is playing a solo based on a partners act. Think of the straight shtick without the stooge.
 
The actual EKOS poll is out, and it's neck in neck, not a solid NDP lead:

http://www.ekospolitics.com/index.php/2018/05/a-volatile-electorate-producing-a-newly-tied-race/
IMHO if the Cons only win a minority it will still be a loss, especially to Dougie since he wants control at all casts. A supermajority to at best a minority will be devastating, more so if Dougie losses his run for Etobicoke North; NDPs have the numbers for this riding right now. Who would step aside for Dougie if the Cons win? I still think that win or lose Dougie will be forced to resign as leader.
 

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