Roads: Six Points Interchange Reconfiguration (City of Toronto, UC)

[Northern Light]

Why do we even need a new Etobicoke Centre? I thought the city already had surplus office space.

The intent is to consolidate the former Etobicoke and York Civic centres and some other offices to become the 'west district civic centre' in a manner similar to North York's Civic Ctr and the form Scarborough City Hall.

The old sites would then be redundant; additionally with modern workspace layouts they'll be able to fit more people into fewer sq ft.

The hope is also that any civic investment, including public square/park and library will make the area more attractive to private development, raise property value and thus generate
assessment revenues.

 

[Johnny Au]

The intent is to consolidate the former Etobicoke and York Civic centres and some other offices to become the 'west district civic centre' in a manner similar to North York's Civic Ctr and the form Scarborough City Hall.

The old sites would then be redundant; additionally with modern workspace layouts they'll be able to fit more people into fewer sq ft.

The hope is also that any civic investment, including public square/park and library will make the area more attractive to private development, raise property value and thus generate
assessment revenues.

York Civic Centre could be converted into a space for small conventions.

The council chamber could be used for holding talks.

 

[Jasonzed]

 

[Tim MacDonald]

Nice to see my old 'hood, Jason. Thanks for the video!

 

[interchange42]

No point debating options now - the concrete is poured. But I share your apprehension.

I can’t find a direct before-to-after comparison of capacity in terms of cars per hour throughput, but I expect it will be decreased. Considering that project does nothing to take cars off the road......while it may transform the area, it will lead to congestion.

Walking, biking, and/or transit options for central Etobicoke are not improved by this project. These modes will be great *within* the new Six Points city centre, but there is no answer to what to do about the heavy volume of traffic that only passes through this district. “Just go away” is not an acceptable answer.

This project is an example of how new urban form is sometimes being rammed into place self righteously rather than carefully sold. I think we need to look in the mirror when people talk about “war on the car”. Sometimes the shoe fits. As was the case at Humber Bay, we are building density first without setting the stage - eg extending Line 2 so the east-west cross-Etobicoke traffic isn’t part of the surface traffic through Six Points.

I live only about a mile east of Six Points, and I still can’t figure how I will get there by bike. Sure hope it’s not by taking Bloor Street.... nothing bikeable about that route!

- Paul

The Six Points area will be fine, traffic-wise; when all is said and done, "war on the car" talk here is melodramatic hyperbole. Sure, drivers may end up being slowed down a bit, but this is city-building we're dong. Essentially, there is zero reason to have an interchange here in the middle of the city, when every intersection around is standard signal-controlled. It may add a minute to getting through it in an automobile: big deal, that's nothing compared to improvement coming for the city fabric here by knitting it all together again.

There will be fewer buses on the road in the area, as Kipling will be taking most of what Islington does now… but they will likely be replaced by new traffic generated by the mini-downtown here as grows over the years. Again, big deal: the benefits accrued to the city by having an actual place here over just a high-speed passthrough shouldn't be underestimated.

In regards to bikes, we are getting bike lanes beside the streets here: that'll improve getting through here a bike. I've cycled through the interchange myself more than once and will appreciate a new network that is friendlier to bikes here. Connecting it all up to a wider network in the future is still a question: that network needs to grow, obviously.

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[interchange42]

Sneaky way to use public funds to anchor the non-residential side of the development. Delivers more public space than one could squeeze out of condo builders. Without this, we would likely end up with a clump of condos with no supporting services or commercial amenities. Which is unjust to the taxpayer, but it's the reality of what developers can squeeze out of the city coffers instead of paying themselves.

Are you saying that building a new civc centre here is to give nearby condo developers a lift? That sounds very conspiracytheoryish.

In regards to paying for it, the plan is to sell the land where the current Etobicoke Civc Centre is. The City expects to make from the sale approximately the amount they're spending on the new civic centre, so the move should be close to revenue-neutral in the end.

Otherwise, what's sneaky about this? You can have your say on this as with every other City project at public consolations and Council meetings. The plan is not a secret.

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[interchange42]

Why do we even need a new Etobicoke Centre? I thought the city already had surplus office space.

What gives you the impression that the City has surplus office space? The City rents out space in a couple dozen buildings across the city partly because the various cvic centres can't fit everyone.

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[muller877]

What gives you the impression that the City has surplus office space? The City rents out space in a couple dozen buildings across the city partly because the various cvic centres can't fit everyone.

42

I just assumed.

1. Merged 6 cities into one (you can reduce back-office head count by 20%+ in a successful integration).
2. There has also been a huge savings with IT in general over the past 10 years (and it will accelerate with AI over the next 5)
3. Redesigned office areas have reduced the sq ft requirements for each employee by 20% (netting increased informal and formal meeting areas)
4. They tried to sell the surplus Metro Hall a while ago (which means they would have grown the civil service by at least that amount if they required add'l space now)
5. Increased growth in population does not require increased back-office staff if they are leveraging IT

 

[interchange42]

Harris' forced amalgamation did not result in a noticeable reduction of employees (what overlap was there to create redundancies?), and Metro Hall was never emptied of City employees.

In any case, I should not have responded to your post here: this is a thread about the reconfiguration of the Six Points interchange.

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[crs1026]

The Six Points area will be fine, traffic-wise; when all is said and done, "war on the car" talk here is melodramatic hyperbole. Sure, drivers may end up being slowed down a bit, but this is city-building we're dong.

I don't think I am being melodramatic, and I would push back on your attitude that if we are citybuilding, the end justifies the means.

This is a very, very busy traffic zone. If the dwell of every vehicle is increased, the overall throughput of the zone decreases. The zone is very close to saturation today. The issue is not inconveniencing each driver by 60 seconds or whatever. The issue is - If X,000 cars are using the zone today, and the future capacity becomes XK minus some amount..... where does that delta go? How do we absorb it in other modes?

It is one thing to say we are depending on transit, cycling, and walking to absorb the increase in traffic as our city grows. It is another to say we are ratcheting back the automotive volumes that move today.

I am not suggesting keeping the cloverleaf, but I see the traffic volumes on Bloor and Dundas daily. This is not a zone to shrug and say "don't worry, it's for a good cause".

Now, extend the 512 out Dundas to Kipling, run it south to Lake Shore, and extend Line 2 to Cloverdale......maybe I can relax ;-)

- Paul

 

[Dan416]

I would have no problem with the reconfiguration if they had managed to do it while keeping Dundas intact (i.e. not having to make turns to stay on it).

 

[W. K. Lis]

I would have no problem with the reconfiguration if they had managed to do it while keeping Dundas intact (i.e. not having to make turns to stay on it).

The Environmental Assessment occurred in 2008. Too late.

From link.

Stage 1: Spring 2017 – Winter 2018
Stage 1A

• Construct new Dundas Street alignment between Kipling and Bloor.
• Construct Road A and Road B.
• Construct an underground Hydro duct bank on Dundas Street West from Aukland Road to Jopling Avenue.

Stage 1B

• Closure of Dundas/Bloor intersection to remove asphalt and place temporary ramps to Bloor.
• Construction along Dundas Street, Road A, and Road B.
• Start work on the bus ramp (Kipling to Street A) and opening temporary connections (Dundas, Road A, Road B).

Stage 1C

• Reconstruct Bloor Street westbound lanes from Dunbloor Road to the projects eastern limit.
• Construct the east-side of Kipling and bus ramp, south of Bloor.

Stage 1D

• Construct the Bloor Street westbound lanes
• Construct the Kipling/Dundas intersection

Stage 2: Spring 2018 – Summer 2019
Stage 2A

• Reconstruct the Bloor Street West eastbound lanes.
• Reconstruct Dunbloor Road.
• Construct the remainder of Dundas Street West south side and the Kipling/Dundas intersection.
• Construct new Viking Lane.

Stage 2B

• Bloor Street realignment from Dundas to Kipling.
• Construct Road C.
• Reconstruct the existing Dundas Street East and Kipling/Dundas ramp.
• Construct Dundas Street West from Jopling to Kipling.

Stage 3: Summer 2019 – Spring 2020
Stage 3A

• Widen Kipling Avenue northbound lanes.
• Remove the existing Dundas/Bloor bridge structures over Kipling.

Stage 3B

• Widen and reconstruct Kipling Avenue southbound lanes.
• Construct Bloor Street West from Kipling to Prennan Avenue.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

This is a very, very busy traffic zone. If the dwell of every vehicle is increased, the overall throughput of the zone decreases. The zone is very close to saturation today. The issue is not inconveniencing each driver by 60 seconds or whatever. The issue is - If X,000 cars are using the zone today, and the future capacity becomes XK minus some amount..... where does that delta go? How do we absorb it in other modes?

It is one thing to say we are depending on transit, cycling, and walking to absorb the increase in traffic as our city grows. It is another to say we are ratcheting back the automotive volumes that move today.

With all due respect, is Line 2 having a capacity crunch?

 

[Tim MacDonald]

With all due respect, is Line 2 having a capacity crunch?

Line 2 has a reliability crunch. Nothing but problems from Old Mill to St. George.

 

[11th]

I would have no problem with the reconfiguration if they had managed to do it while keeping Dundas intact (i.e. not having to make turns to stay on it).

Would have been a good location for a giant roundabout with some sort of park and/or community centre in the middle. Pedestrian access via tunnel or bridges.