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When is enough transit infrastructure enough?

rbt said:
We just need to make it less convenient for a bus rider to take the Yonge line than the other options.
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It's not about making it less convenient to take the Yonge line, it's about making it more convenient to take other lines. The DRL north will do that. People coming from the east will find the new line to be a better option for going downtown than trekking all the way to Yonge.
 
MisterF said:
It's not about making it less convenient to take the Yonge line, it's about making it more convenient to take other lines. The DRL north will do that. People coming from the east will find the new line to be a better option for going downtown than trekking all the way to Yonge.
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Another idea would be to split the bus routes into 3 (East, Central, West) instead of the 2 (East, West) we have now. This won't be necessary for E-W LRTs and Subways, as those need to promote riding from one end to the other.
 
pman said:
When it’s downtown, which has enough subways according to the suburban brain trust.
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Now, now lets be honest for a moment. The suburbs have not voted down any Downtown subway (yet), while the opposite cant be said. And I completely agree there is a need for extensive relief to be built, but that is along with suburban growth with priority for both needs. How can that be achieved?

Downtown voters might need to start voting in other parties in the Province and maybe Federal level to see any urgent action. Even if its just for a one term timeout to get their attention. Otherwise their is no reason for the Conservatives to buy them off when their vote is stubbornly static and no reason for the Left parties to do anything more than show up, there is simply no need to woo large blocks of Downtown voters as the Left parties just have to show up. Just an idea that might actually work because having local councillors piss off other areas of the neglected City wont help solve this problem any way. IMO its the only solution to achieve the necessary attention or action you seem to blame the suburbs for?
 
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OneCity said:
Now, now lets be honest for a moment. The suburbs have not voted down any Downtown subway (yet), while the opposite cant be said. And I completely agree there is a need for extensive relief to be built, but that is along with suburban growth with priority for both needs. How can that be achieved?
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Not sure what you're arguing against. We had a former mayor that literally said this, then we have clueless rubes all the way up in York Region that join hands on stage and announce how Toronto doesn't need a subway through its core, then shady Lastman who was just gimme gimme and got pols on board with his plan with a promise they'll benefit (even though he knew they wouldn't).

The alternative to your scenario (that "downtown" is opposed to major transit investment in the suburbs)...it's just not true. Sure you're putting it lightly, and I know other posters who'll bend over backward rewriting history to paint a picture starker than yours. But again it's not true. Yes in the present there are Matlows and Keesmaats, but look at what they're saying: they're not opposed to transit in the suburbs. Line 3 - it exists. And in my eyes it's already a subway. Maybe smaller and somewhat decrepit, but it's a helluva lot more than most areas in the gta get. They're saying improve it, you're saying they want nothing. That's not fair, nor accurate.

If the fabled Queen Subway/RL existed today, but it was over-capacity and running +30yo experiment trains, would it be right for me to argue that it's equivalent to nothing? Or that anyone who supports improving such a line is being anti-downtown or has a zero-transit stance? Obviously not. So why is it right for you to argue that those who support upgrading Line 3 believe this?
 
OneCity said:
And I completely agree there is a need for extensive relief to be built, but that is along with suburban growth with priority for both needs. How can that be achieved?
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Not all suburbs are treated equally though.

Etobicoke and North York are growing rapidly, and we are not building any subways there. There isn't even talk about it (except only recent discussions have begun seriously discussing Relief Line North).

Scarborough in the other hand is not experiencing anything near NY and Etobicoke levels of growth (or growth period) and yet we are actively discussing "closing the loop" at the combined cost of what? 8-9b dollars?

Etobicoke just keeps being shafted in my opinion. Ford has declared no interest in funding Waterfront transit that would have been critical for South Etobicoke. (Where lots of growth has occurred)

So I don't see this as a suburbs vs downtown narrative. It's purely a politics over facts narrative.
 
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WislaHD said:
Scarborough in the other hand is not experiencing anything near NY and Etobicoke levels of growth (or growth period) and yet we are actively discussing "closing the loop" at the combined cost of what? 8-9b dollars?
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So I don't see this as a suburbs vs downtown narrative. It's purely a politics over facts narrative.
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That "or growth period" line is a bit of nonsense, and it essentially is the epitome of politics v facts. Not advocating building a full heavy subway along Sheppard, but baseless rhetoric about 'no development' is more or less the same reasoning used by pols re: a Queen Subway. And why we have serious pinch points in the core part of the system. Be it Ford saying downtown has subways, Lastman arguing how NYC will be bigger than downtown, and decades of previous pols who pushed things like Bloor/Danforth in place of a flying U.

Sheppard-SC has seen major development, it's seeing some now, it will see more in the future. And it's obviously a very highly used corridor. Might be a current lull in the present for certain areas, but in a dynamic city like Toronto there certainly aren't areas seeing zero indefinitely.
 
This is a really interesting question I was thinking myself but in the context of some centres in East Asia and Europe. Will they some soon be in the situation where they are over-infrastructured? Will falling populations and work forces make mothballing existing transit a legitimate consideration?

Here in Toronto we aren’t anywhere near the point of saturation and our population is growing at a fair clip. That said I don’t really know if a cross regional network will ever be appropriate versus the downtown hub network we are building. Our built form is not dense (averages mean nothing we need to look at localized densities) and frankly for every resident that wants cross regional transit options in our lower density areas there are others who don’t want public transit at all in their area. While we love public transit and density generally on this forum we should respect the fact that some people do not and should not, want that.
 
TrickyRicky said:
This is a really interesting question I was thinking myself but in the context of some centres in East Asia and Europe. Will they some soon be in the situation where they are over-infrastructured? Will falling populations and work forces make mothballing existing transit a legitimate consideration?
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Chicago lost a million people and they haven’t mouthballed any infrastructure.
 
OneCity said:
Now, now lets be honest for a moment. The suburbs have not voted down any Downtown subway (yet), while the opposite cant be said. And I completely agree there is a need for extensive relief to be built, but that is along with suburban growth with priority for both needs. How can that be achieved?

Downtown voters might need to start voting in other parties in the Province and maybe Federal level to see any urgent action. Even if its just for a one term timeout to get their attention. Otherwise their is no reason for the Conservatives to buy them off when their vote is stubbornly static and no reason for the Left parties to do anything more than show up, there is simply no need to woo large blocks of Downtown voters as the Left parties just have to show up. Just an idea that might actually work because having local councillors piss off other areas of the neglected City wont help solve this problem any way. IMO its the only solution to achieve the necessary attention or action you seem to blame the suburbs for?
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But the suburbs work downtown. They need more subways downtown more then anyone else.
 
denfromoakvillemilton said:
But the suburbs work downtown. They need more subways downtown more then anyone else.
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I get what you are trying to say but that's the simplistic view that helped push the City further into a divide. The inner suburbs have various outstanding needs when it comes to transit both local, city wide, and the socio economic spin-off that surrounds integrated transit investment. Save for some councillors I believe we're on a far better track getting away from simple short term solutions or continuing pitting areas against each other.

The Province and City for the matter needs to prioritize relief and growth together at all times. At this stage the neglect is rampant in this massive amalgamated City. It has to be about moving forward with a common voice as we have seen start under Tory and begin to demand attention for the various needs across various areas as a priority. Continuing to pit areas on a priority relief vs. growth debate will continue to see yield the worst results possible. York region albeit all growth is running circles with some form of unity while Toronto continually beats up itself look to take the insufficient crumbs provided from other areas of the City. We just need to build extensively and not stop.
 
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innsertnamehere said:
Oh, but they have. They shut down part of their green line in the 1980's. It was only about 1.5km, but still, it is a closure.
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That was a shame, as it eliminated a useful connection to Metra and the South Shore Line. It wasn't for lack of funding or use but a very vocal local landowner (a megachurch) didn't want the section of elevated by his property on 63rd Street rebuilt, as per the CTA's plans to improve accessibility and reliability.

Chicago eliminated and demolished several L branches in the 1940s and 1950s - the Stockyards Branch, the Kenwood Branch, the Normal Park Branch. There are also many ghost stations - some still very visible today - as stops were consolidated over the years. Some of that was simple cost-cutting, but some of it was in the name of modernization.
 
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