hw621
Senior Member
We are talking about rolling stock,while the whole electrification project is on the brink
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GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx
- Thread starter innsertnamehere
- Start date
steveintoronto
Superstar
To be honest, the "electrification project" has been "on the brink" for some time. Could the Cons obfuscate on this any more than the Libs at present?
The saving grace is in the P3 aspect. Since it doesn't directly show on the books (and note Ford hasn't a clue as to how to finance this 'on the books' as he's suggesting with 'increased lending power' of uploading the TTC) then funding is no longer such a relevant point. Not that any of the three have picked up on this. Wynne more than anyone should be able to point this out.
Earlier this evening, I did a search, and this was mentioned in no less than three P3 publications:
http://www.infrastructureontario.ca...ER-West-Corridor-Infrastructure-Improvements/
Using the search parameters:
"metrolinx Request for Qualifications electrification" a slew of results come up, this is the first, and typifies many more:
And these are all being written up and discussed in investor publications.
No matter *who* wins, the business case is there to do this by mostly private investment. And not one of the candidates is discussing that.
"Electrification on the brink". I'd say that claim is just a tad premature...although it has to be watched closely.
Key:
- The project is being delivered as a Design Build Finance Operate Maintain (DBFOM) contract using Infrastructure Ontario's Alternative Financing and Procurement (AFP) model, which transfers risks associated with the design, construction, maintenance, operations and financing of the project to the private sector.
hw621
Senior Member
Some one tell Ford this...
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
UPX is a completely different service from what rer is supposed to be. The reason I don't see ridership being big on it is because not many people in Toronto live close to the rail lines to make it be an option for them. As I said it only works if you have the TTC provide direct bus service to the stations where posable otherwise it will be seen by the average transit rider as just another version of the go train.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
UPx is exactly what RER will be for the two non-airport stations it serves. 15 minute DMU (well, RER will be EMU, but close enough) service that quickly transports passengers downtown.
The amount of people using the UPx to travel to Bloor and especially Weston is already fairly significant - and that is at GO's current $5 pricing structure. $3 fares and far more stations around town will really change how people access the city.
The amount of people using the UPx to travel to Bloor and especially Weston is already fairly significant - and that is at GO's current $5 pricing structure. $3 fares and far more stations around town will really change how people access the city.
crs1026
Senior Member
Well, let's keep perspective. UPX with GO fare generated enough ridership to pack two- or three-car single level trains, every fifteen minutes. That's not enough to fill a subway train every six minutes.
RER will be a well-used GO train service. People who extrapolate that into RER becoming the city's next subway network may be gilding the lily. For a decade or two anyways.
And, as for equipment.....six bilevel cars with an electric locomotive will be cheaper to procure and operate incrementally for the next ten years than a fleet of new whatevers with the bilevels sitting idle. We don't need new rolling stock until the old stock wears out. We just need some electric locos.
If you want to dream about different brands of equipment, knock yourself out. I could suggest a couple of hobby shops to visit. But ML's new fleet will be bought on a spreadsheet analysis, not on a google search or a browse through www.railpictures.net. Mid-day 15 minute RER service needs a couple dozen electric locomotives, nothing more.
- Paul
RER will be a well-used GO train service. People who extrapolate that into RER becoming the city's next subway network may be gilding the lily. For a decade or two anyways.
And, as for equipment.....six bilevel cars with an electric locomotive will be cheaper to procure and operate incrementally for the next ten years than a fleet of new whatevers with the bilevels sitting idle. We don't need new rolling stock until the old stock wears out. We just need some electric locos.
If you want to dream about different brands of equipment, knock yourself out. I could suggest a couple of hobby shops to visit. But ML's new fleet will be bought on a spreadsheet analysis, not on a google search or a browse through www.railpictures.net. Mid-day 15 minute RER service needs a couple dozen electric locomotives, nothing more.
- Paul
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
Well, it also needs the electrification over tracks with catenary and at least double tracking of corridors. But yes, in terms of fleet, using the current coaches with new locomotives is sufficient.
hw621
Senior Member
Electrification, if ever gets done, will be done by 2024. That is 6-7 years from now, so it accounts a good part of the next ten years. Also do electric loco accelerate and decelerate fast enough for the proposed smaller spacing?
UPX is generating that ridership though mostly through walk-ons. Only a handful of bus routes service the Weston stop, and the transfer between the TTC and GO/UPX stations at Dundas West is a PITA.
Even without full RER, if that connection tunnel between the two stations on Bloor is built and better fare integration comes about, the demand would easily fill another UPX train that just ran from Bloor to Union every 10 mins, on top of the existing UPX service.
The potential is very much there, there are just a couple pieces of the puzzle missing, which can be filled even if RER doesn't come about.
aquateam
Active Member
When the Eglinton LRT is open, the stop at Caledonia will have a convenient connection to UPX as well, increasing the catchment area.
I think that ridership will continue to grow as awareness of the service grows: many people are still unaware that UPX exists. My brother lives by Dundas west and was surprised to find out that there is an airport train, and still doesn't know where the station itself is. It doesn't help that the UPX doesn't appear on the TTC's rapid transit map (even though the airport bus does.)
Leo_Chan
Senior Member
I think you mean Mount Dennis.
aquateam
Active Member
Ah oops, yep, that's what I meant. Caledonia is for the Barrie line.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
The current hints in the RER plan advocates a mixed fleet
- EMUs for tight spaced corridors (Bramalea-Unionville - ala SmartTrack corridor) and likely thru Aurora.
- Electric locos on existing BiLevels for Lakeshore East/West and Kitchener
- Diesels on existing BiLevels for many expresses (Hamilton, etc)
Synonyms to the phrase "mixed fleet" shows up in many Metrolinx docs.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Yeah, I don't know why this is such a 'new idea' for persons who claim to follow this. That's been in Metrolinx reports for approaching a decade now. It's just established practice elsewhere. Mind you, they did illustrate DD EMUs, but have now dropped the DD reference.
It remains a 'best kept secret'. I live right adjacent to Bloor West, and continually have to inform people of it, let alone where the station is, and especially the northern entrance from the parking lot of the FreshCo/Shoppers Drug Mart. It's very poorly indicated.
No, not even close with the present thrust to weight ratio, not to mention the (yet again) dwell time necessary to load and unload passengers. The present UTDC DDs are slow to do so by modern standards for RER service.
No-one is claiming RER to be a "surface subway". It's being claimed to be an RER, or a *metro* if one insists. Just like about fifty other cities, including third world ones, well ahead of Toronto on this. This isn't rocket science, save to Ontarians who can only dream of service like others have.
Absolutely! I couldn't even get on the UPX on Tuesday, until running down to the other car on the train to squeeze in with bike (with front wheel popped off, it's a classic racer). Ended up talking cycling with a Dutchman from Groningen headed to Pearson until my stop at Weston. Yesterday, since UPX was full again, decided to take regular GO out of town to cycle back in. Warming up for serious cycling season. This was approx 11:00 am, northbound.
And further to previous posts by myself and others, yes, UPX and RER can share fleets with the 3-car 'metro' rolling stock discussed prior. High platform loading, triples can be coupled into longer trains (takes less than a minute with modern couplers...well...phhh...modern by North Am standards, been recognized by the UIC for generations, which Canada has just signed to with the CETA agreement, btw). If the Georgetown Corridor is to be the first one electrified, and UPX along with it, there's absolutely no reason local trains (RER) can't share EMU rolling stock with UPX. Now about the signalling and control system for the corridor...
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crs1026
Senior Member
Maybe not, but regardless of which party gets in.... eventually someone (likely the new Transport Minister) will eventually have the financials presented to them. And, with sweat forming on their brow, they will ask, “OK, but what’s the cheapest way of making this happen?”
25 locos x $8M versus 150 EMU’s x $3M..... simple math.
There’s no doubt that ML will end up with EMU’s - but as noted above, they will arrive at whatever rate the current bilevels reach end of life, and only until the right balance of EMU versus bilevels is reached. All this EMU craving is just foamer enthusiasts emoting towards their personal erotic fantasy.
The spreadsheet will prevail.
- Paul