GO Transit Electrification | Metrolinx

[APTA-2048]

Even Whistler has been running hydrogen buses for over a decade with no issues.

Yeah about that: no, they haven't. The buses were delivered in 2009 and introduced during the 2010 Olympics. After their 5-year trial period, they were withdrawn—last seen headed to the United States. BC Transit just didn't see it making sense for them. The buses cost more to maintain and the hydrogen had to be transported by truck from Quebec.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I was interested in what Steve Munro had to say and nothing yet but his latest post stated that Flexity streetcars were ordered to "stop and stay" due to a power outage at King & Spadina. This is a potential problem with catenary and the RER system but would never be an issue with Hytrolley or Hydrail.

Can you imagine the chaos if this were to happen at Union when electrified RER is operational? It would shut the entire RER system down but not Hydrail. This is very pertinent to Toronto as when you have an entire RER system where every service and line converges at one spot, the entire network is threatened when using catenary.

Frankly the more I think about this the more I am prone to think that, if feasible technologically with pulling coaches, electrification should be be put on hold and Hydrail takes it's place. Don't cancel the entire project but get a prototype running for a couple years as a semi-DRL Weston to Kennedy route and make an informed decision.

This is only an issue because the TTC was using a trolley poll when they really shouldn’t have been (as outlined in Steve’s post)

Pantographs have been used forever. It is a proven technology, like the wheel. There’s a lot more risk associated with using new Hydrogen tech.

 

[crs1026]

Also, does the Feasibility Study touch on when these two pilot vehicles would be delivered and how that fits into the RFQ-RFP timeline?

Here is the timing chart. The prototype loco is said to be available for testing mid-2020 but the production rollout schedule will meet the RER target of 2024-2025 for the first route only.

Steve Munro pointed out on Twitter (with appropriate sarcasm) that we are well past the go-no go date for selecting hydrail if we want RER to adhere to its current schedule.

- Paul

 

[Amare]

Metrolinx is so bloody frustrating they infuriate me. Enough with this experimentation stuff, there is not one transit provider in the world which uses hydrogen powered trains in their fleet and that is for a good reason: it is an unproven technology. If they want to go ahead and trial it in a few trains, go right on ahead but to implement this unproven technology system wide is just laughable.

Europe is usually at the forefront at looking into new technology for rail and even they have not experimented with it, which goes to show how premature the hydrogen train concept is. We are so far behind in building transit, and now is not the time to be experimenting with different ways of transporting thousands of commuters. This is the same organization that just yesterday launched a pilot WiFi program on a few trains and buses, now all of a sudden they want to launch this hydrogen rail scheme across the network. Heck they even piloted hybrid buses for the bus fleet. Now they want to dip their toes all in on hydrogen? It really doesn't make any sense.

If we can, let's get the basic crux of RER service up and running with proven electric technology. After that point, if they want to start experimenting with their fantasy projects, then by all means go ahead.

 

[smallspy]

This is only an issue because the TTC was using a trolley poll when they really shouldn’t have been (as outlined in Steve’s post)

Pantographs have been used forever. It is a proven technology, like the wheel. There’s a lot more risk associated with using new Hydrogen tech.

Actually, the issue was with the carbon inserts in the poles, and the fact that they recently changed the composition of them. There's nothing wrong with the pole itself.

Also for the record, poles have been around a lot longer than pantographs.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The buses cost more to maintain and the hydrogen had to be transported by truck from Quebec.

That got to blow whatever carbon neutral benefit hydrogen is supposed to provide.

AoD

 

[muller877]

Metrolinx is so bloody frustrating they infuriate me. Enough with this experimentation stuff, there is not one transit provider in the world which uses hydrogen powered trains in their fleet and that is for a good reason: it is an unproven technology. If they want to go ahead and trial it in a few trains, go right on ahead but to implement this unproven technology system wide is just laughable.

Europe is usually at the forefront at looking into new technology for rail and even they have not experimented with it, which goes to show how premature the hydrogen train concept is. We are so far behind in building transit, and now is not the time to be experimenting with different ways of transporting thousands of commuters. This is the same organization that just yesterday launched a pilot WiFi program on a few trains and buses, now all of a sudden they want to launch this hydrogen rail scheme across the network. Heck they even piloted hybrid buses for the bus fleet. Now they want to dip their toes all in on hydrogen? It really doesn't make any sense.

If we can, let's get the basic crux of RER service up and running with proven electric technology. After that point, if they want to start experimenting with their fantasy projects, then by all means go ahead.

The problem with the gov't is many of their projects ignore the upfront capital costs of a project (one-off...who cares? My budget will be "balanced" by the end of the term). I am looking forward to what a private operator will propose which will look at the full life-cycle of the project. Both opex and capex.

My prediction is that they will do a mixture of both. Where these is a need for many stops and there are a lot of trains the capital cost of installing overhead makes sense. But If there is only hourly service with express to Union (Barrie, Kitchener, etc) the outer portions of the tracks will not have overhead and this is where hydrogen can make a difference.

The private operator will also look at other potential benefits of creating the hydrogen facilities. When I read the white paper I thought it would be great to have a scale-able solution where excess hydrogen could be sold for other uses when/if there is a future demand.

 

[M636RF]

I also saw in the Star article that they were looking for a Hydrogen Powered Locomotive. Although I doubt they'll be able to find one that performs as well as modern diesels, it will be interesting to see what they come up with. The MPXpress platform is fairly easy to modify, so they could potentially reconfigure older MP40s.

I'm still kind of annoyed that Metrolinx is this intent on Hydrogen power for RER. If they were smart they would have already committed to electrify certain lines. Electric trains are lighter and accelerate faster. Having all sorts of Hydrogen stuff added to trains would probably make them heavier and slower, and the long term reliability of these systems is unclear. If we are that concerned about reducing emissions, why not implement a more reliable and proven propulsion system (overhead catenary) that could take thousands of gas guzzling cars off the road each day?

 

[dowlingm]

I also saw in the Star article that they were looking for a Hydrogen Powered Locomotive. Although I doubt they'll be able to find one that performs as well as modern diesels, it will be interesting to see what they come up with. The MPXpress platform is fairly easy to modify, so they could potentially reconfigure older MP40s.

LOL look how long it took from when 647 was shipped back to Boise to when it returned to when it was FINALLY left out on its own.

Fourth, this could create a whole new industry for the province in a field that is going no where but up.

Remember when Presto got sold to Washington DC, and Metrolinx went looking to Accenture for its royalty cut, and it turned out they had signed a contract where they only got a cut from Presto sales IN CANADA?

The rail industry is global - look at the Flexity lines with their Austrian cabs and Mexican frames. The balance of proof has to be on the Province that there is actual and sustainable gain here which will not be moved offshore after a short period, and the hydrogen production process will use sustainable feedstock and will not tax the power grid at any point such that gas-powered peaker plants will be needed, even when municipal electric buses and private electric vehicles are factored in.

 

[raptor]

For those interested, Link to the Prototype Locomotive Design Services Project RFP

 

[wopchop]

Here is the timing chart. The prototype loco is said to be available for testing mid-2020 but the production rollout schedule will meet the RER target of 2024-2025 for the first route only.

Steve Munro pointed out on Twitter (with appropriate sarcasm) that we are well past the go-no go date for selecting hydrail if we want RER to adhere to its current schedule.

- Paul

View attachment 135283

So what exactly does this mean? Is catenary being abandoned in favour of this Hydrail? Or, if I'm reading correctly, they will offer bidders the choice of going with Hydrail or traditional catenary electrification?

My other understanding of that choice, based on that chart you provided, would be that if the bidder does select Hydrail, the RER program would not begin incremental rollout on all lines until 2025+

 

[gweed123]

Here's my take on it: I'd be fine with Hydrail for some of the exurban lines, but I think the core GO network should be electrified. Run electrified RER on West Harbour-Oshawa, Mt Pleasant-Unionville, and Aurora-Union, but implement Hydrail on routes like Niagara Falls-West Harbour, Kitchener-Union (express after Mt Pleasant), and Barrie (express after Aurora).

This would not only provide a good rolling stock delineation between the "core" RER network and the longer-haul routes, but it would also save money on not having to electrify through largely rural areas.

 

[GrayLake]

From my understanding, fuel cells that are powered with hydrogen produced via electrolysis are very inefficient compared to an electric motor hooked onto the grid. You would use significantly more electricity to power hydrail than traditional electric trains. On top of that, you will need a large infrastructure to carry and supply the hydrogen to the trains which will also be energy intensive.

Knowing that much of the marginal supply of electricity to the North American (and Ontario indirectly) grids comes from fossil fuel, I don't think that hydrail is such a green alternative. I must say that at least it doesn't produce local emissions in the city.

I also have a hard time believing this will save us money in the long term given the low efficiency and high cost of power of hydrail. Maybe it can be a decent alternative to diesel on long distance low frequency trips, but I don't believe in hydrail for RER style service.

I would hope that the transit experts at the government of Ontario already know all this. Then this whole thing would just be another diversion to justify not making any progress on RER/electrification and win the votes of the hopeful (naive) people who buy into the hydrail concept.

 

[crs1026]

So what exactly does this mean? Is catenary being abandoned in favour of this Hydrail? Or, if I'm reading correctly, they will offer bidders the choice of going with Hydrail or traditional catenary electrification?

According to the comments made at the presser, bidders will have either option. However, Ontario may be counting on the cost of building hydrogen production and fuelling facilities being lower than the cost of stringing wires, building hydro substations, and rebuilding other infrastructure eg bridges. This may bias bidders towards hydrail as it will secure the lowest bid position - if they can accept the risks involved.

Since risk raises the bid price, the bids may not be much cheaper with hydrail. The report spends a lot of time trying to make the case that the overall risk envelope is no greater with hydrail.... I'm biting my tongue.

My other understanding of that choice, based on that chart you provided, would be that if the bidder does select Hydrail, the RER program would not begin incremental rollout on all lines until 2025+

That's the conclusion of the "experts" who put together the report, yes, but it's just their opinion. I hope that someone will try to pin down ML and the Minister on this point. The construction of the tracks etc can continue before then, but the full 15 minute service plan and added stations can't be run effectively with the existing diesel fleet - we need the better acceleration/deceleration performance of an electric fleet or equivalent.

- Paul

 

[Towered]

Hasn't the province been down this road before, with unproven, one-off technology not used elsewhere?

I wonder how that turned out...