44 North
Senior Member
Unless you don't consider Line 3 a subway, this discrepancy will be even larger with SSE.
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Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension
- Thread starter kEiThZ
- Start date
Unless you don't consider Line 3 a subway, this discrepancy will be even larger with SSE.
MisterF
Senior Member
Toronto's subway system is definitely suburb-focused. Despite downtown having the highest growth, density and transit demand and being the core of the entire region, literally all of the rapid transit expansion in the last 50 years has been outside downtown. Are there any other cities in the world you can say that about? The city-wide flat fare doesn't help either. Arguing that downtown is favoured at the expense of the suburbs is like arguing that black is white. Just the complete opposite of reality.
Underground subways by their nature are best suited for highly dense urban areas, not low density car-oriented suburbs. The sheer expense of that kind of line makes it only worth it in the highest density areas. They can be made cheaper by building above ground (Skytrain for example, or parts of Lines 1 and 2 that were built above ground) or taking advantage of existing tracks, but that's not what's happening here. There are cheaper, more effective rapid transit solutions for low density areas like RER. Or, you know, just fixing the rapid transit line that's already there.
Toronto seems to insist on doing things the wrong way. Building underground subways in the suburbs instead of where the highest demand is. Building LRT lines that stop at red lights. Resisting attempts to integrate into the broader region. RER is the most sensible mass transit project in Toronto in decades and will benefit the entire city. And it's not even a city project. Hopefully once the system is running and people realize what RER can be the demands for subways subways subways everywhere will finally subside.
Underground subways by their nature are best suited for highly dense urban areas, not low density car-oriented suburbs. The sheer expense of that kind of line makes it only worth it in the highest density areas. They can be made cheaper by building above ground (Skytrain for example, or parts of Lines 1 and 2 that were built above ground) or taking advantage of existing tracks, but that's not what's happening here. There are cheaper, more effective rapid transit solutions for low density areas like RER. Or, you know, just fixing the rapid transit line that's already there.
Toronto seems to insist on doing things the wrong way. Building underground subways in the suburbs instead of where the highest demand is. Building LRT lines that stop at red lights. Resisting attempts to integrate into the broader region. RER is the most sensible mass transit project in Toronto in decades and will benefit the entire city. And it's not even a city project. Hopefully once the system is running and people realize what RER can be the demands for subways subways subways everywhere will finally subside.
ShonTron
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You mean like Bluffer's Park? Or Rouge Park? They're both great, big parks, but neither will see any improved access with a one-stop subway.
The long-needed Bluffer's Park bus will terminate at Kennedy Station. Rouge Park is only really accessible from the very end of Route 54 Lawrence East, which will be completely bypassed by the one-stop subway, or Routes 85/86 by the Zoo, neither of which will be improved by the current plans for Scarborough.
pman
Senior Member
Clearly we need to extend Line 2 even past STC to the Rouge Valley. Because folks living at Shephard and Twyn Rivers deserve subways.
OneCity
Senior Member
While I believe there should be a subway stop further down Lawrence at the hospital, the debate may not be had in time with the upcoming last gasp and final breathe of transfer LRT this election. In any case under the current scheme Smarttrack will make an easy connection to the 54 Lawrence bus and SCC could provide a direct Brimley bus to Bluffers or 21 Brimley to Kennedy to Bluffers. Anyway nice to have less transfers as the bus and seamless LRT network continues to see improvements
syn
Senior Member
The sad and frequently ignored reality is that the current plan reduces access. It makes inter-Scarborough travel far worse than it is now.
But who cares about things like accessibility and quality of life? Transit projects are about making people feel special for getting a subway!
pman
Senior Member
Don’t forget transfers, Syn! Nobody should ever have to transfer from one rapid transit line to another.
OneCity
Senior Member
Sorry you don't agree. The City is very large more respect needs to be given to voters in the areas impacted the most for certain projects. And that goes for all on council, In all areas otherwise politics will continue on a similar path. Which is really saying nothing but the obvious.
Ive truly never ever seen a such a massive area have their democratic vote disrespected to this extent Scarborough has and its exactly why we have the politics currently:
99% Scarborough Politcal support to do better than Transit City and extend the subway to SCC yet the overwhelming majority Dowtown Left council continue to myopically push ill placed transfers upon the residents for over a decade past cancelation. This unwillingness to budge is not helpful in anyway for any part of the City. Its one thing to disagree but to never even attempt to move off the old flawed plan after all this time and overwhelming support is not a plot its an endless assault but the same political players. Its the main reason the Citys Left has no chance for the Mayor seat unless they get off this stubborn platform.
You may not repsect my opinion or but it's far from a unique one outside of UT
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Leo_Chan
Senior Member
I don't think anyone believes that there should never be a subway extension or subway line that goes to STC. However, due to past mistakes (SRT technology) and the current situation (exploding costs), it really requires a compromise to "fix" the transit going to STC. Whether it be LRT in the SRT corridor, LRT on McCowan, Subway on the SRT corridor, Subway under McCowan, or some other innovative solution, it all comes down to costs and ridership.
I understand John Tory's idea of "we need to get on and build something" and the people of Eastern Toronto feeling neglected when it comes to transit infrastructure, but such emotions and perceptions need to be backed up by facts and reason.
If the situation was different, where the cost of the One Stop Line 2 Subway Extension was not 3.35B or the city had extra funds to spend and the Relief Line was already built, then fine, build it. But right now, the facts are not in favour of it and should not be built in it's current form, especially because the Relief Line will be full on day one and the system will still be at critical capacity.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Do you truly believe 99% of Scarborough residents support this subway extension?
Hopkins123
Senior Member
Do you suppose inflation will cease to occur in the future too? As long as construction costs continue to rise, the solution is to commence with building the subway as soon as humanly possible to avoid making its construction even more untenable. Crying over $350 million/km today over what could be hundreds of millions of dollars more even a half decade from now is foolhardy.
OneCity
Senior Member
Never said that. I've repeatedly said 99% of democratic elected officials from all across this massive area support the subway as one of if not THE main platform item. If you truly believe people here want the transfer LRT thats still being pushed from a mainly outter Scarborough political stripe I'm not sure what to tell you other than you're being misled.
The time has now passed to work on a better integrated solution and the time has almost passed to adds stops. Transit is a huge issue and Tory really has no competition in the middle to compete with so the current plan is what it is with Ford out of the picture. The City's Left candidates really have next to no chance running on a Transit City platform when Tory vying for his second term that will be heavily supported. But all signs point to the possibility will try.. again. Time to move on. Torys package of plans in design is very solid and the idea of going back is beyond ridiculous when the Fed is at the table
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syn
Senior Member
Doesn't seem like much of a mistake given how well it's functioned and the environment it serves.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Would you suppose the hundred of thousands of Scarborough residents that oppose the thing are also working to undermine Scarborough? Or do those people not exist in your world?
Admiral Beez
Superstar
I live downtown, and have tons of parkland around me, from Riverdale Park, Wellesley Park, Corktown Common, Regent Park field, Allan Gardens, David Crombie Park, etc.
I just came back from Seoul, Hong Kong and Taipei. I spent a lot of time walking these downtown areas and saw none of the leafy green streets and urban parks I see in downtown Toronto.
Perhaps you're focused on condo projects along Gardiner/Rail Corridor? Sure, they don't have a lot of parks, because they never did, it's never been parkland. It's an industrial rail yard converted to forest of apartment buildings.