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King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

MetroMan said:
I wouldn’t be so sure. The King Street Pilot has been wildly successful for transit and has proven to be a strategy that can save Toronto from absolute gridlock while we try to catch up on our backlog of subway construction.

Once the new layout is in place and King attracts pedestrians and hop on/hop off transit to businesses on King, the opposition to replicating it on other streets will soften.

They’ve learned lessons how to roll something like this out. I’ve heard from the top of the food chain that this is going to be reproduced throughout the city.

The 501 Queen is probably next. It’s a heavily used transit corridor like the 504/514 and crosstown car traffic can shift to the Richmond/Adelaide corridor like on the King Street Pilot. It’s low having fruit.
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But it's so close to King street. Make it Carlton or preferably Dundas; there are way too many cars at Yonge and Dundas and the 505 is the most crowded surface route.
 
44 North said:
501 Queen is the logical next step. But feel like it'd be wise to start phasing out Queen service between now and 2031 in preparation for RL construction. Bolster service on 505 Dundas and 506 Carlton, also go harder with 504 King improvements by expanding the "Pilot" east on King and up Broadview. Broadview station is vital for 504 and 505, as is the Broadview Ave as a corridor. With Queen down to buses or no service at all for key stretches, we need to have a plan in place today.
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They shouldn't get rid of 501 service through the entire route, even with the Relief line operating. It should provide itself as a local route for the street especially with the distance between subway stations and the depth of the line. If they do cut off 501 service along the relief line, I imagine the 501 West of Osgoode being renamed to the 507 and the 501 East of Sherbourne being renamed the 508 (or something). Considering the subway will only be on queen street between Parliament and Osgoode, it makes no sense to terminate through 501 service, but if they do, underground loops need to be at terminating and passing stations.
 
steveintoronto said:
This is half-baked. The concept is excellent, the implementation is a disaster. And fugging Council and Mayor throw $1.5M at it, and wonder why it doesn't dance?

Jeezuz...
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“It is unwise to pay too much, but it is worse to pay too little.
When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
 
micheal_can said:
Could we expect that all streetcar lines that are not grade separated become transit malls?
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DSC said:
No.
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rbt said:
Hmm. Since you didn't give a time period I'll say yes. We won't see it, but our descendants might.
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Realistically with how this pilot is going, could we expect to see all streetcars lines that are not grade separated become transit malls within the next 10-20 years? If not, why?
 
micheal_can said:
If not, why?
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There is near zero benefit for streets like Broadview, Main, or even Gerrard to be converted to transit malls. Congestion simply isn't that bad on them and the huge number of residential driveways makes it tricky to design around.

Frankly, I don't think we'll see the entirety of the King route as a transit mall in the next 50 years let alone all streetcar lines.
 
micheal_can said:
Realistically with how this pilot is going, could we expect to see all streetcars lines that are not grade separated become transit malls within the next 10-20 years? If not, why?
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Yes.
Incrementally over 50 years, but not identically to King.

20 years?
No. But maybe more than 50% of kilometerage will become dedicated-lane (QueensQuay/Spadina styles, bus-lane styles, or King styles).

In fifty years -- as streetcar traffic doubles in a manhattanifying Toronto -- some residential places like Broadview will simply be simple "buslane" like bans -- with a very slight raised speedbump-edge -- you can drive across it (turn left from a driveway) -- and you'll be able to go straight at intersections -- but you wouldn't be allowed to drive on the center lanes unless you were a transit vehicle.
 
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micheal_can said:
Could we expect that all streetcar lines that are not grade separated become transit malls?
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I expect that curb parking will be eliminated on streetcar routes as the city battles with serious gridlock. That’ll allow for traffic mall models different than the one on King. As the fastest growing neighbourhood in the city, in addition to transit priority, it needs wider sidewalks, preventing the Spadina-like ROW model from being chosen.

I can see a separated ROW being installed on College/Carlton. A lot of the infrastructure — including centre island stops — is already in place. What’s kept it from happening is the deeply engrained curb parking.
 
MetroMan said:
I expect that curb parking will be eliminated on streetcar routes as the city battles with serious gridlock. That’ll allow for traffic mall models different than the one on King. As the fastest growing neighbourhood in the city, in addition to transit priority, it needs wider sidewalks, preventing the Spadina-like ROW model from being chosen. I can see a separated ROW being installed on College/Carlton. A lot of the infrastructure — including centre island stops — is already in place. What’s kept it from happening is the deeply engrained curb parking expectation.
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If it was up to me, I would prefer through lanes and no on street parking rather than no through lanes and some on street parking.
 
Leo_Chan said:
If it was up to me, I would prefer through lanes and no on street parking rather than no through lanes and some on street parking.
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Every street has different attributes that warrant different solutions. King Street doesn’t have room for a ROW because it also needs wider sidewalks. College street itself is much wider, already has wide sidewalks and already has built centre island stops.

Notwithstanding the political implications, converting College to a ROW would actually be very simple. Remove the parking, maintain car lanes in each direction on the outside lanes and build a curb separating the streetcar from car traffic.
 
MetroMan said:
I expect that curb parking will be eliminated on streetcar routes as the city battles with serious gridlock. That’ll allow for traffic mall models different than the one on King. As the fastest growing neighbourhood in the city, in addition to transit priority, it needs wider sidewalks, preventing the Spadina-like ROW model from being chosen.

I can see a separated ROW being installed on College/Carlton. A lot of the infrastructure — including centre island stops — is already in place. What’s kept it from happening is the deeply engrained curb parking.
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The 506 really should connect to the subway at Keele in the west.
 
Towered said:
The 506 really should connect to the subway at Keele in the west.
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In fact, the bus replacements for streetcars do. It was very shortsighted back in the day when the Bloor streetcar loop at Keele was torn up. One escalator is left on the south side of the station, the one on the north side is long gone, and unfortunately, the access for a streetcar loop to be re-established where it was is now blocked by development on the south side.
 
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