BurlOak
Senior Member
I prefer angled text.
The street grid in Toronto is north-south, so all street labels are horizontal or vertical. Angled text stands out.
Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s
- Thread starter JasonParis
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The street grid in Toronto is north-south, so all street labels are horizontal or vertical. Angled text stands out.
MisterF
Senior Member
The difference is that all those cities have massive, dense networks of subway lines going all over their central areas. The major financial districts in all of those cities are served with multiple rapid transit lines going in multiple directions. Toronto's financial district has one rapid transit line going in one direction, north. If you want to go any other direction you're out of luck. RER will arguably change that, but we're not there yet.
Your opinions might have more weight if you refrained from calling opposing opinions "incredibly stupid". Just a thought.
Line 2 is obviously not a failure in terms of ridership. But it's farther north than where most of the demand is (ie. south of Bloor). If it had been built along Queen where it was originally planned, it would have been more in the middle of the demand, with a more even split of people transferring north and south. It also would have been within easy walking distance everything from Dundas to Front. So the crowding problems at the transfer stations wouldn't be as bad. In this hypothetical situation another line would probably have been built along Bloor later on, just like the DRL on Queen is finally getting planned now. Now if the DRL had been built the way it was shown in the later 1973 subway plan this would all be a moot point, but it wasn't. The fact that that we're even having this debate shows how much of a failure Toronto and the TTC have been at building a transportation system.
No, technically we don't have three downtown subways. Line 1 may be two lines for all intents and purposes, but technically it's only one. And I'm sorry but no, none of the streetcars are higher order transit in even close to the same way that a subway is. Anything that stops at red lights is no substitute for a subway.
ssiguy2
Senior Member
All this talk about the DRL is all very touchy-feely but won't be built for at least a decade and Y&B need relief NOW. Telling the patrons who are already waiting 3 trains to get on Yonge and then hyperventilating when they get on it that "relief" is on it's way a decade from now doesn't make them feel any better. The longer the situation is allowed to fester the more potential transit riders will be turned off the system entirely and who could blame them?
Yes more streetcars and buses would help but they get clogged in traffic too and don't have the mass movement power of subways. The immediate answer is to make full utility of the lines they already have, namely GO. GO is running well under capacity and when you consider the huge increase in service in the last few years and with little to show for it in increased ridership, then reason is obvious........it's too damn expensive. GO ridership in Toronto is embarrassingly low. Miss gets more GO riders on the trains than all of the city of Toronto despite having less than one-third the population, Toronto being served by all 7 lines, and having Union station where the vast majority are heading for.
Torontonians aren't avoiding GO because they like to hyperventilate on the subways, wait in the snow & rain for packed streetcars or buses to pass them by, like their commutes to be longer, or enjoy being late for work. The reason they don't take GO is because they can't afford it and the slight new discount on GO/TTC fares recently introduced only helps a little and still makes GO unaffordable for potentially hundreds of thousands of riders.
The answer to overcapacity subways is already up and running, now if only Toronto would let them take it.
Yes more streetcars and buses would help but they get clogged in traffic too and don't have the mass movement power of subways. The immediate answer is to make full utility of the lines they already have, namely GO. GO is running well under capacity and when you consider the huge increase in service in the last few years and with little to show for it in increased ridership, then reason is obvious........it's too damn expensive. GO ridership in Toronto is embarrassingly low. Miss gets more GO riders on the trains than all of the city of Toronto despite having less than one-third the population, Toronto being served by all 7 lines, and having Union station where the vast majority are heading for.
Torontonians aren't avoiding GO because they like to hyperventilate on the subways, wait in the snow & rain for packed streetcars or buses to pass them by, like their commutes to be longer, or enjoy being late for work. The reason they don't take GO is because they can't afford it and the slight new discount on GO/TTC fares recently introduced only helps a little and still makes GO unaffordable for potentially hundreds of thousands of riders.
The answer to overcapacity subways is already up and running, now if only Toronto would let them take it.
aquateam
Active Member
There is basically a trade-off between having a radial system and a grid system. Toronto is laid out on a grid, and our rapid transit has been built under those major streets respecting that grid. A radial system is great for commuters getting downtown. But if you want to go anywhere other than downtown in a way that isn't painfully circuitous, a radial system isn't great. If the Bloor-Danforth line was built as the "flying U" compromise, which went down Queen, that would mean that going from the west end to the east end or vice versa involves detouring through downtown.
Having a grid means that you can get from anywhere to anywhere in a fairly direct way, without more than 2 transfers. It's better for servicing a wide variety of origin-destination pairs.
We already have a radial system which goes directly to downtown from every direction (GO). Once RER is built, it would make sense to have RER as the express routes into downtown, with a grid of rapid transit (Bloor line, Sheppard, Finch, Eglinton, DRL) overlaid as distributors.
- 2 out of 4 of Montreal's lines go downtown. The yellow line skirts the edge in the same way that the Bloor-Danforth line skirts the edge of Toronto's downtown.
- The ridership of all three downtown-bound San Diego Trolley lines combined (119 000 daily) is about a fifth of the "failed" Line 2 (510 000 daily).
- Boston has no street grid and has a dense concentration of institutions in its very historical downtown area. So I wouldn't compare it to a 20th century city in terms of built form.
Of course, it's ridiculous that we are expanding outside the city of Toronto before we even have our core capacity in downtown. DRL should have been built long before Sheppard, Spadina line, SRT, etc.
What you are talking about, jogging the Bloor line down to Queen, was seriously considered at one point:
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WislaHD
Superstar
There are other things we could do.
Running a frequent, express bus service on Mt. Pleasant - Jarvis would probably take 1000 or more people per hour off the Yonge Line at rush periods.
It is a small number, but even a small amount of relief would make quite a difference.
WislaHD
Superstar
Nailed it. In short, our subway lines should be built in a grid system and our commuter lines (GO) should be built as a radial system.
It may stand out, but it's harder to read. Angled really only makes sense when you have a lot of points on a horizontal access spaced reasonably close together. Even the TTC Subway map has Bloor-Danforth's stations alternating between above and below in horizontal text. For a map that has so many "unique" design quirks, that's one area where they stuck with a good standard.
muller877
Senior Member
It's not just the fare. I would love to take the GO from Dundas West every day it is delayed. About the same time and the extra fare is worth avoiding Line 1. However, the connection is horrendous and there is no news on the subway about what to expect ahead.
The direct connection is years away so there is no silver bullet. But I would more likely to take it if:
1. They put a canopy over the dreary walk along Bloor St (you have a blank wall on one side of you and the street on the other).
2. A user-friendly source that will tell you how busy the subway line is (both accessible via a website, showing on the platform televisions and in the actual subway car). Use the google symbols on a map. Red for busy, dark red for very busy, a yellow caution symbol when there is a train issue or alarm pressed. Having this knowledge would mean I could decide to pay a bit extra (bite the bullet and walk in the snow) to avoid them.
3. An ETA to Union based on each alternative (real-time and not based on some fictional schedule)
Same think could be done for all the stops before Main, Downsview, at Kennedy, at Kipling, etc.
They should also make the TTC bus-GO connections more user friendly. Either by changing the GO stop for a direct connection to the street or looping the bus into the station (the later is a quick win, the former a longer-term build).
MisterF
Senior Member
Yes and no. While there's a strong grid element to the subway, Line 1 is already a partial radial setup, feeding into downtown from the north and northwest. The DRL is also radial in nature, following several different streets in a big J shape. And while the grid is useful for crosstown travel, the bulk of the demand is still in peak hour commuting downtown. That's why there's such a problem with transfers and crowding, and that's why the Eglinton and Finch lines will only make it worse. RER will help to be sure, but it won't solve the biggest problems. While Toronto is in some ways multinodal, the biggest node by far is downtown and the city is getting more and more downtown oriented with the explosive growth there in the last 15 years. A larger radial element in the subway system is badly needed.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Not to mention that the radii would be delightfully tied together with the "Mid Town Rail Line" that may come our way sometime.
https://transit.toronto.on.ca/regional/2106.shtml
Streety McCarface
Senior Member
Not to mention that the radii would be delightfully tied together with the "Mid Town Rail Line" that may come our way sometime.
https://transit.toronto.on.ca/regional/2106.shtml
That will never come, at least not within our lifetimes. You can thank CP for that.
steveintoronto
Superstar
To utilize the CP RoW, it will take 407 By-Pass to come about, but right beside it in the mid-town section is the hydro RoW which can be used for LRT or the Spadina streetcar extended north from the Spadina Station east to the Summerhill rail station (North Toronto Station) which is privately owned and would welcome it, and a pedestrian connection built down to the Summerhill subway platforms.
The Crosstown is also a Metrolinx connection across the radii, even if it's to be operated by the TTC. To assert that Metrolinx is 'only radians locused on Union Station' is incorrect, albeit generally true. All the more reason for a Relief Line to supplement that and relieve the TTC subway lines and serve the core in one fell swoop.
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
Yes more buses would help but where do they get these spare buses from? Also "express" buses rely on the idea that the traffic is actually moving. They too have to use the same clogged roads and if the roads are at a standstill then so are these "express" buses. No one in their right mind would take the TTC to downtown in rush hour coming from Kennedy, Rouge Hill, Orion, Lakeshore, or Malton if they had a fast and affordable alternative but they don't. GO is certainly fast and vastly more pleasant but it is not affordable under any stretch of the imagination.
For GO the infrastructure is there, the vehicles are there, but the key issue of accessibility isn't. Toronto could greatly improve the issues of subway and bus overcapacity OVERNIGHT by allowing TTC fares on GO lines in the City itself.
smallspy
Senior Member
The vast majority of trains running into Union Station in the morning rush hour on both of the Lakeshore Lines, the Milton Line, the Kitchener line, the Barrie line and the Stouffville line are already running over capacity. What makes you think that they have capacity to spare?
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
Union Rail station could get relief when the new Broadview and Spadina GO stations not only open but connect with the DRL to transfer to the TTC, instead of everyone going to Union and transferring only to Line 1.
Would be even better if there could also be a Downtown Interceptor line that could connect with Gerrard Square GO and run alongside Dundas and Gerrard passing through Dundas and St. Patrick and then to Chinatown and then south to the Spadina GO.
Would be even better if there could also be a Downtown Interceptor line that could connect with Gerrard Square GO and run alongside Dundas and Gerrard passing through Dundas and St. Patrick and then to Chinatown and then south to the Spadina GO.