TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[Leo_Chan]

1. There will probably be a lot of replies on this but here it is in a nutshell. City is forced to make a tough decision. Either stick with Bombardiers poor performance and their tone deafness about it or pay more money and wait longer for a competitor to make tbem. No matter which decision is made some will criticize it.

The TTC could always make the vehicles themselves

 

[robmausser]

The TTC could always make the vehicles themselves

hahahahahhaha

No they could not.

 

[TOareaFan]

I am almost positive I read somewhere when the 60th car was delivered that the TTC acknowledged this was the trigger point of the option but that they and BBD were negotiating an extension to the option point considering how delayed deliveries have been.....did not sound acrimonious at all and seemed likely to get done....can't find where I read that though.

EDIT....found it:

https://twitter.com/BenSpurr/status/956616635049267201

 

[rbt]

Wasn't it 150+60?

210 additional vehicles for TTC downtown use? Almost certainly not.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The TTC could always make the vehicles themselves

You mean order one from IKEA and put it together at Hillcrest?

They tried looking for "light rail" on the IKEA catalog (link), but found the wrong kind of "light rail".

lol

 

[A Torontonian Now]

They tried looking for "light rail" on the IKEA catalog (link), but found the wrong kind of "light rail".

Light Rail (in) Transit:

 

[nfitz]

Excuse my ignorance, all I know about the Bombardier Streetcar contract is what I've learned from this thread, but aren't we at the 60 streetcar mark? Why aren't we hearing about whether the option for the additional 60 will or won't be exercised?

It's not been exercised. There's no money allocated in the 2018 budget, based on Bombardiers poor delivery performance of the first 60+ cars.

Which is absurd, with them now producing at least 60 a year, it would only be about a year's extra delivery to get those 60 cars.

Let's see how many decades it takes now.

Though as their are court-challenges outstanding, who knows what might still be agreed to.

Also, the 60-th car isn't the only condition. There's also the car meeting certain performance standards that haven't been met yet - even if it's only minor issues with the doors.

 

[drum118]

It's not been exercised. There's no money allocated in the 2018 budget, based on Bombardiers poor delivery performance of the first 60+ cars.

Which is absurd, with them now producing at least 60 a year, it would only be about a year's extra delivery to get those 60 cars.

Let's see how many decades it takes now.

Though as their are court-challenges outstanding, who knows what might still be agreed to.

Also, the 60-th car isn't the only condition. There's also the car meeting certain performance standards that haven't been met yet - even if it's only minor issues with the doors.

It would be absurd if TTC gives BBD an option for more cars based on their track record as well failing to meet standards 100%. None of BBD doors work not only on the new fleet, but the TR's as well. Then there are doors issues on GO fleet as well. When you can't get your failure rate above 15,000 com[art to the contract 35,000 at this time, does speak well.

You keep changing your position on BBD as well which year they will have the last car here. Until BBD deliveries 5-6 cars per month for 4 month in a row, don't see 60 cars this year as well contract fulfill by Nov 2019.

I am willing to wait an extra 2 years to get the extra 60's plus from another supplier since I haven't had any faith in BBD for the last 8 years.Time for TTC to get off the pot, but more so the city and place a tender for the extra cars ASP and award it this year. Also, produce the report on what was learn what other suppliers could do meeting TTC needs.

4462 looked like it was going to go into service on 509 this afternoon, but ended up sitting on the hold track at the EX. I first thought it was to allow the change over to pans, but no idea if that was the case. The car return to the service bay where its currently is.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

None of BBD doors work on only on the new fleet, but the TR's as well.

I don't get what your obsession with "door problems" is I hardly ever see any of the new cars having door problems. Ocaslinaly the T1's and TR have door problems but I've seen more of the SRT cars having them than anything else. The only door problem I see with the doors on the new streetcars is with people not understanding how the button works to open the doors or the ones that come up to a stop after the door has closed and the car has started to move and they push the button thinking it will stop the train and open the door for them.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

It would be absurd if TTC gives BBD an option for more cars based on their track record as well failing to meet standards 100%.

No Company --- including Alstom, SIEMENS, CAF, Skoda and other streetcar makers --- will meet standards 100%. It is an impossible expectation.

None of BBD doors work not only on the new fleet, but the TR's as well.

When you make a requirement for flashing lights and push buttons on the doors you are opening yourself up to door issues. Having the expectation that the doors will work 100% of the time when they require a moving wire harness is just lunacy.

As for the TRs if the humans walking through them would stop jamming them there would likely be less issues.

Then there are doors issues on GO fleet as well.

There are a rather large number of old Hawker-Siddeley and UTDC bi-levels that are over 30 years old in the GO fleet. To expect those doors to be perfect after the have opened and closed several tens of thousands of times is completely unrealistic.

Humans also need to stop jamming the doors on the GO Fleet too.

When you can't get your failure rate above 15,000 com[art to the contract 35,000 at this time, does speak well.

and you think anyone else could with the TTC's moving goalposts of expectations and thousands of customizations?

You keep changing your position on BBD as well which year they will have the last car here. Until BBD deliveries 5-6 cars per month for 4 month in a row, don't see 60 cars this year as well contract fulfill by Nov 2019.

They'll have them here by Nov. 2019

I am willing to wait an extra 2 years to get the extra 60's plus from another supplier since I haven't had any faith in BBD for the last 8 years.Time for TTC to get off the pot, but more so the city and place a tender for the extra cars ASP and award it this year. Also, produce the report on what was learn what other suppliers could do meeting TTC needs.

If you think it will only take an extra 2 years you need to give your head a shake. No supplier would be able to keep up with the TTC's moving goalposts of expectations and excessive customizations.

 

[drum118]

4462 is finally in service on 514 after 24 days.

 

[crs1026]

If you think it will only take an extra 2 years you need to give your head a shake. No supplier would be able to keep up with the TTC's moving goalposts of expectations and excessive customizations.

Are you saying that TTC has changed the spec after the order was signed? Did Bombardier accept such change orders?

TTC may have asked for things that went beyond the original Bombardier offering, but if Bombardier willingly signed a contract to deliver those things, without contractual language saying "we will endeavour, but no promises" - well then, sorry - a deal is a deal.

- Paul

 

[Kyle Campbell]

When you make a requirement for flashing lights and push buttons on the doors you are opening yourself up to door issues. Having the expectation that the doors will work 100% of the time when they require a moving wire harness is just lunacy.

How is that an excessive customization?That's been the standard in Europe for decades, and the default way Flexities and every other manufacturer has done it, including the s70 and the citadis

 

[Maltesefalcon]

Are you saying that TTC has changed the spec after the order was signed? Did Bombardier accept such change orders?

TTC may have asked for things that went beyond the original Bombardier offering, but if Bombardier willingly signed a contract to deliver those things, without contractual language saying "we will endeavour, but no promises" - well then, sorry - a deal is a deal.

- Paul

Well said. Teething problems and initial startup delays can be expected and forgiven in the initial move from prototype to full production. BBD is well into the production cycle by now.

Since Oct they have revamped their production quotas for 2017/18 from seventy plus seventy six, to sixty five plus seventy six, then sixty three plus seventy six. Now possibly only 120 by 12/31/18. So a drop of 26 deliveries in a very short time span. On top of that a drop of 6 for Q1 2018 alone.

The only one moving the goal posts seems to be BBD....

 

[rbt]

Are you saying that TTC has changed the spec after the order was signed? Did Bombardier accept such change orders?

Yes and no.

Yes, they submitted additional/refined specs after the order was signed. The ramp design and presto machine mounting/wiring points for example. Heck, the original tender didn't even know Presto would be the fare device to be installed.

No, they did not change anything Bombardier wasn't expecting. TTC, and many organizations, regularly use a "details to be provided" text in tenders for components that are expected to be designed in partnership with the vendor. These boilerplate components are the entire reason a prototype vehicle is designed and tested; so the design may be refined by the customer.


So business as usual for nearly any order of this type. Not a change request, but a fleshing out of the details. Whether those details were late or not I don't know.