TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
The good news is this thread still has at least a few more good years ahead of it. And to think, it could have been wrapping up later this year. How boring that would have been.
Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
Johnny Au
Senior Member
robmausser
Senior Member
That thing should be extended along the entire Finch Hydro corridor to make a nice Finch BRT/GO Transitway like the one in Mississauga that links up with the LRT West.
Its just too opportunistic to not do it.
Transportfan
Senior Member
2017!? Delayed again? By a full year?
nfitz
Superstar
That's the same date they were talking about last month at the board. Nothing has changed since that meeting.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Yeah, at this point it depends how you look at the meaning of "delayed." That's an improvement from the 2019 dates they were looking at if they didn't hire Bechtel. so....yay?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I am really quite curious how, on a subproject by subproject basis they managed to get from 2015 (or 2016, if you go with the it was unfunded for a year argument) all the way to 2019.
AoD
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
TTC!!
I do believe their report [I don't know how many pages back now] outlined it all. Some was stuff beyond their control (e.g. death at York U) some was underestimating how long things would take, some was contractor SNAFUs. In short, it sounds like just about everything that could go wrong has.
Oh, I just went and found it. Starting on P.9, though there's more detail later on (e.g. p. 79)
https://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Co...s/4_1_TYSSE_Final_Report_and_Presentation.pdf
There's probably more detail to be found but I think it would just be depressing to read. Easier to just tell yourself they never really knew what they were getting into in the first place.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I can't imagine the project is that much more complex, that much more unpredictable than building smack in the middle of downtown core here or elsewhere - for the schedule to slip that much is ridiculous. And I love how the fatality at York is shipped out over and over again when it resulted in a 4 month delay - the station proper is what, at 30something percent right now - that's not a simple fatality issue.
AoD
Mr_Praline
New Member
You're correct. While tragic and awful, it wasn't actually the biggest reason for the delay; it was really about the massive contract dispute the TTC and two conglomerates mired themselves in:
National Post article from 18 months ago...
TOareaFan
Superstar
There is some sort of media tour going on just now....some pretty spectacular pics being posted by @moore_oliver (likely others too but his are showing up in my twitter feed.
M II A II R II K
Senior Member
What the TTC's Spadina extension looks like right now:
http://www.blogto.com/city/2015/05/what_the_ttcs_spadina_extension_looks_like_right_now/
http://www.blogto.com/city/2015/05/what_the_ttcs_spadina_extension_looks_like_right_now/
CDL.TO
Moderator
Royson James wrote a few days ago that Sobara has stated that the TYSSE was built primarily for the reasons of pork:
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...s-is-to-question-why-and-why-again-james.html
Ours is to question why, and why again: James
A backroom deal between Greg Sorbara and Jim Flaherty, related with unusual candor in Sorbara’s book, offers a lesson for today’s transit debates.
By: Royson James Toronto Politics, Published on Mon May 04 2015
See all that highway construction through Ajax and Whitby, heralding the eastward extension of Highway 407 toll road?
Little did you know it is politically linked — maybe, cynically so — to the subway extension to York University and beyond, up to the open fields of Vaughan.
Provincial heavyweight Greg Sorbara wanted the subway through his riding; the late federal finance minister Jim Flaherty coveted the 407 eastward through his riding. They schemed a secret deal in a Vancouver hotel to deliver the goodies that Sorbara readily admits were a boon to their political fortunes.
The 2006 back-scratching cost the province $1.5 billion towards the highway, and the feds contributed $660 million for the subway. A fair exchange wasn’t the goal — just the peddling of political patronage devised to maintain one’s status.
Sorbara, former deputy premier of Ontario and finance minister, writes in his memoirs:
“I will admit that if I could bring a subway to York (University’s) Keele Street campus — the southern boundary of York Region and my riding — it would not only be great for the people in the region, but also for my political prospects.”
We don’t often have our political leaders offer such unvarnished commentary on their actions and motivations. So, let’s linger a bit in The Battlefield of Ontario Politics and the segment with the heading, “The York Subway Saga.”
It’s 1986, and Sorbara is a rookie MPP in David Peterson’s minority government, the first taste of Liberal rule after decades of Conservative government. Sitting next to Sorbara in the legislature is Ed Fulton, an ex-Scarborough city councillor who did little to distinguish himself as councillor but now finds himself minister of transportation in the rookie-laden government.
So, Sorbara puts his pen to a TTC map Fulton is carrying and draws a line from Wilson subway station to York University. This is not the TTC’s priority or city council’s or even York Region council’s. It’s Sorbara’s, a politician who understands how to feather his nest and flatter himself into thinking he’s a transit planner.
He writes: “Certainly, I championed the subway in part because it helped the part of the province I represented in the Ontario legislature. I don’t apologize for that. It’s an essential ingredient in the recipe. Every project that goes forward has to have strong merit in and of itself. But that’s not enough. In our system, you need unrelenting political advocacy to win your case. The job of the politician is to make that case.”
But Sorbara does more than “make the case.” He greases its path, using the considerable resources of the taxpayer-funded provincial treasury to propel his pet project to the head of the line.
He hooks up with Flaherty at a finance ministers’ conference. “I made the financial and political arguments yet again. And then it was time to barter.”
The pricetag was huge and it took some stickhandling, but, writes Sorbara: “I also knew the federal Conservatives were looking to win more seats in the GTA, and this would help in that area.”
Some might consider this kind of secret wheeling-and-dealing corrupt, not in the legal sense, but in a moral construct where the citizen is prone to believe that competing transit proposals are given equal weight, and decisions are made on their relative merit.
It may be of some comfort to know that even with his power and influence, Sorbara needed a lot of help to accomplish his goal. Many others understood the political value of his advocacy.
By the time money flowed to deliver the two projects, Sorbara was no longer finance minister. Not knowing about the “deal,” new transportation minister Kathleen Wynne decided to fund just half of the highway, infuriating Flaherty.
“I did confirm to our people that my commitment was for the whole thing. Yes, Flaherty and I did the deal with a handshake. No, there were no notes or signed documents. But I’d given my word.”
Sorbara makes one more stunning claim. He chides then-mayor David Miller for not embracing the subway and the province’s largesse: “He should have been thrilled at the prospect of the province providing $670 million for more subway infrastructure, regardless of where it went.”
As our political leaders make grand claims about our transit future, throwing money into corridors no one recommends, bypassing decades of knowledge gathered from study and deliberation, it may be wise to be entirely skeptical about what projects they trumpet and why.
Yes, ruthlessly question their motives — every one of them.
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...s-is-to-question-why-and-why-again-james.html
Ours is to question why, and why again: James
A backroom deal between Greg Sorbara and Jim Flaherty, related with unusual candor in Sorbara’s book, offers a lesson for today’s transit debates.
By: Royson James Toronto Politics, Published on Mon May 04 2015
See all that highway construction through Ajax and Whitby, heralding the eastward extension of Highway 407 toll road?
Little did you know it is politically linked — maybe, cynically so — to the subway extension to York University and beyond, up to the open fields of Vaughan.
Provincial heavyweight Greg Sorbara wanted the subway through his riding; the late federal finance minister Jim Flaherty coveted the 407 eastward through his riding. They schemed a secret deal in a Vancouver hotel to deliver the goodies that Sorbara readily admits were a boon to their political fortunes.
The 2006 back-scratching cost the province $1.5 billion towards the highway, and the feds contributed $660 million for the subway. A fair exchange wasn’t the goal — just the peddling of political patronage devised to maintain one’s status.
Sorbara, former deputy premier of Ontario and finance minister, writes in his memoirs:
“I will admit that if I could bring a subway to York (University’s) Keele Street campus — the southern boundary of York Region and my riding — it would not only be great for the people in the region, but also for my political prospects.”
We don’t often have our political leaders offer such unvarnished commentary on their actions and motivations. So, let’s linger a bit in The Battlefield of Ontario Politics and the segment with the heading, “The York Subway Saga.”
It’s 1986, and Sorbara is a rookie MPP in David Peterson’s minority government, the first taste of Liberal rule after decades of Conservative government. Sitting next to Sorbara in the legislature is Ed Fulton, an ex-Scarborough city councillor who did little to distinguish himself as councillor but now finds himself minister of transportation in the rookie-laden government.
So, Sorbara puts his pen to a TTC map Fulton is carrying and draws a line from Wilson subway station to York University. This is not the TTC’s priority or city council’s or even York Region council’s. It’s Sorbara’s, a politician who understands how to feather his nest and flatter himself into thinking he’s a transit planner.
He writes: “Certainly, I championed the subway in part because it helped the part of the province I represented in the Ontario legislature. I don’t apologize for that. It’s an essential ingredient in the recipe. Every project that goes forward has to have strong merit in and of itself. But that’s not enough. In our system, you need unrelenting political advocacy to win your case. The job of the politician is to make that case.”
But Sorbara does more than “make the case.” He greases its path, using the considerable resources of the taxpayer-funded provincial treasury to propel his pet project to the head of the line.
He hooks up with Flaherty at a finance ministers’ conference. “I made the financial and political arguments yet again. And then it was time to barter.”
The pricetag was huge and it took some stickhandling, but, writes Sorbara: “I also knew the federal Conservatives were looking to win more seats in the GTA, and this would help in that area.”
Some might consider this kind of secret wheeling-and-dealing corrupt, not in the legal sense, but in a moral construct where the citizen is prone to believe that competing transit proposals are given equal weight, and decisions are made on their relative merit.
It may be of some comfort to know that even with his power and influence, Sorbara needed a lot of help to accomplish his goal. Many others understood the political value of his advocacy.
By the time money flowed to deliver the two projects, Sorbara was no longer finance minister. Not knowing about the “deal,” new transportation minister Kathleen Wynne decided to fund just half of the highway, infuriating Flaherty.
“I did confirm to our people that my commitment was for the whole thing. Yes, Flaherty and I did the deal with a handshake. No, there were no notes or signed documents. But I’d given my word.”
Sorbara makes one more stunning claim. He chides then-mayor David Miller for not embracing the subway and the province’s largesse: “He should have been thrilled at the prospect of the province providing $670 million for more subway infrastructure, regardless of where it went.”
As our political leaders make grand claims about our transit future, throwing money into corridors no one recommends, bypassing decades of knowledge gathered from study and deliberation, it may be wise to be entirely skeptical about what projects they trumpet and why.
Yes, ruthlessly question their motives — every one of them.
Last edited:
CDL.TO
Moderator
It's also good to consider the Sheppard East LRT, and other projects, in light of that article.
Things won't happen without a champion. Merit only goes so far. SELRT has no champion so we shouldn't be surprised that it foundered. And, frankly, the DRL doesn't have a champion either these days.
Things won't happen without a champion. Merit only goes so far. SELRT has no champion so we shouldn't be surprised that it foundered. And, frankly, the DRL doesn't have a champion either these days.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Indeed, though the flip side is we wonder why we have such piecemeal system with skewed priorities. As to championship for DRL, well, things are going to get worse and at some point it will break - and that's when the political will happens.
AoD
AoD
Last edited: