Toronto BMO Field Renovations | ?m | ?s | MLSE | Gensler

If MLSE buy the Argos it's a done deal.

I was personally very opposed to the Argos / TFC stadium share concept as a soccer fan who doesn't follow CFL football but basically I don't care as long as two issues are resolved: 1) The field is grass 2) there are no CFL Football gridiron lines on the field of play during a soccer match.
 
sixrings said:
as always I advocate for the Argos to build a mirrored stadium right beside the TFC field maybe with a few more seats and astroturf. People are use to getting there now so it shouldn't be an issue to get to. I agree 40k fans are never going to show up at a CFL game in Toronto outside of the greycup. How many people showed up to the semi finals game at rogers centre?

BTW I will forever be sad that the Argos didn't make a deal with UofT and play at an expanded Varsity stadium. That would have been a great place to watch a game.
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I'm a football fan first, but also recognize the importance of ensuring the long term prosperity of one of this city's oldest cultural institutions. The Argonauts have been shuffled around for 57 years in stadia that didn't meet their needs, where they had little control over scheduling, weren't promoted properly, or offered poor sight lines. Exhibition Stadium and Skydome were/are baseball stadia trying to be football stadia. In the case of the Skydome, it's actually done more damage to the franchise than good. Even the cherished Labour Day classic between Toronto and Hamilton was lost last year due to Rogers scheduling another event.

The Argos have endured body blow after body blow for about 30 years. They (FOR ONCE) need a facility where they have full control over their destiny and the best chance at prospering. The last thing the Argos need now is to be a marginalized team in yet another new home. This may be the last chance to resuscitate the Argonauts and Torontonians know what's at stake this time around. We can't screw this up.

I'm sensitive to the concerns of soccer fans, but can BMO work for the Argonauts? Far more is at stake for them than the soccer team. That said, BMO would be a vast improvement over playing at Skydome. Are they looking at 30,000 seats? The only way they could go to 40,000 is if they demolish the east stands, build a sunken bowl, then move the new east stands further to the east.

The end zone issue for soccer fans? We accommodate the shorter NBA court at the NHL sized ACC, surely we can use the same concept here?

sixrings said:
I agree 40k fans are never going to show up at a CFL game in Toronto outside of the greycup. How many people showed up to the semi finals game at rogers centre? BTW I will forever be sad that the Argos didn't make a deal with UofT and play at an expanded Varsity stadium. That would have been a great place to watch a game.
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I will never get over the Argonauts losing its opportunity to return to Varsity either. It's football's ancestral home and hope I see them back there one day. 40,000 fans showing up to regular season games may be a pipe dream, but what goes down can always go back up again. Toronto is a huge city, it wouldn't take much of an uptick in interest to see a substantial increase in attendance; especially if the stadium is football friendly. If you can't get me to Skydome to watch football something is wrong with the facility. The Argos @ BMO? I'd buy season's tickets.

Btw, the Ti-Cats - Double Blue semi @ Skydome drew 35,418.
 
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ChesterCopperpot said:
The Whitecaps and BC Lions seem to be able to share BC place quite easily

Also, there is an NFL/MLS overlap with the New England teams and the Seattle teams that share a stadium.

I think Houston also share their stadium with a college football team (they are the only ones with natural turf though)
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The NFL regular season runs from early Sept to the end of Dec and the CFL regular season runs from late June to early Nov, while the MLS regular season runs from late early Mar to the end of Oct. Meaning the NFL/MLS overlap for about 2 to 3 months while the CFL/MLS overlap for 4 to 5 months, not as big a difference as I fist thought but still it is a bit easier to deal with a couple of month of overlap vs a handful. That is what I was trying to say that scheduling wise it is a bit easier to have an MLS and NFL team share a venue vs an MLS and CFL team
 
Woodbridge_Heights said:
The NFL regular season runs from early Sept to the end of Dec and the CFL regular season runs from late June to early Nov, while the MLS regular season runs from late early Mar to the end of Oct. Meaning the NFL/MLS overlap for about 2 to 3 months while the CFL/MLS overlap for 4 to 5 months, not as big a difference as I fist thought but still it is a bit easier to deal with a couple of month of overlap vs a handful. That is what I was trying to say that scheduling wise it is a bit easier to have an MLS and NFL team share a venue vs an MLS and CFL team
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but a nfl venue is 70k seats.... the only way mls sells anywhere close to that amount of seats is if every game the seats are 2$
 
sixrings said:
but a nfl venue is 70k seats.... the only way mls sells anywhere close to that amount of seats is if every game the seats are 2$
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Seattle had 4 games over 50,000 this past MLS season – their average home attendance was 44,000
 
If our team actually played well ... it wouldn't surprise me if we could sellout a 50K stadium ... seriously ... the demand for a good soccer product in this city is much higher then football (CFL or NFL!), baseball, or basketball !
 
taal said:
If our team actually played well ... it wouldn't surprise me if we could sellout a 50K stadium ... seriously ... the demand for a good soccer product in this city is much higher then football (CFL or NFL!), baseball, or basketball !
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I doubt that even a good Toronto soccer team would attract anything close to a new Toronto NFL team
 
innsertnamehere said:
you underestimate the immigrant soccer loving population in this city.
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Immigrant soccer loving people love 1st division soccer caliber....Most MLS teams would have a hard time beating a European 2nd division team

Sad but true...the Toronto FC is nothing more than a good 3rd division team anywhere in the world
 
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Automation Gallery said:
I doubt that even a good Toronto soccer team would attract anything close to a new Toronto NFL team
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I'm not so sure we gave enough football fans in T.O. To support a real football team, much less an NFL team. We have enough trouble trying to establish a real hockey team. Besides, hasn't it already been decided that the Bills are coming here once Wilson "moves on"? They're perfect for us, they never make the playoffs either.
 
Big Daddy said:
I'm not so sure we gave enough football fans in T.O. To support a real football team, much less an NFL team. We have enough trouble trying to establish a real hockey team.
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There aren't many football fans in Toronto, but the CFL is also at a historic low in this city. It has nowhere to go but back up. Toronto NFL fans think we're a big football mecca, but the numbers don't back that up. What's more accurate is that Torontonians have a severe case of 'the grass is greener on the other side of the fence' when it comes to football. Actually going to football games hasn't been part of the cultural DNA of Torontonians since the 1970s. Attendance at the 2013 Bills game was 38,969 and that was with thousands of freebies & drastically reduced ticket prices. Without either, it would have easily been down around 25,000.

There are about 20,000-30,000 who loyally show up to football in Toronto through thick or thin. If they haven't abandoned the Argonauts through all this, they never will. The Argonauts will only gain support and traction with a move to a proper stadium. One thing that struck me was how shocked Torontonians were when they watched that pre-season game at Varsity or went up to Guelph to watch the Ti-Cats. It really put into focus how terrible the football experience at Skydome is. People here have forgotten what it's supposed to be like.

Montrealers went through the same revelation when the Alouettes moved out of Olympic Stadium and into Molson Stadium. Wow, is this what we've been missing all these years? People realized that there was nothing wrong with the CFL, it was the stadium. If that can happen in Montreal, it can happen in Toronto too. If it does, the Argonauts will have no problem selling out a 30,000 seater. They'd likely need something bigger actually.

MLSE has seen the writing on the wall. The NFL isn't coming here, there's no benefit to the NFL financially or strategically in doing so, and the market for it is smaller than people seem to think. They also see the diamond in the rough that the Argonauts represent. I wouldn't be surprised if the Argonauts under the ownership of MLSE are worth triple what they are today within 10 years.

The importance or irrelevance of a league/franchise is directly proportional to the support/attention its fans give it. The Saskatchewan Roughriders are testament to that. We can have that here too, but it largely depends on us. There's nothing wrong with the product.
 
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TFC was still drawing around 18K to the stadium last year even with a joke of a product. If the team starts to improve and sign some big name players like Lieweke has promised, the demand will take off. Even with our stubborn immigrant population.

MLS is the 8th most attended soccer league in the world based on average attendance and with the goal to be one of the top leagues in the world by the 2020s. I can see Toronto filling a 40,000 seat soccer stadium in the coming years
 
^yep, my understanding that soccer was growing extremely quickly in NA, a market that has previously been seen as not even worth bothering with for soccer.
 
I think it can happen. 2-3 years ago, average attendance at TFC games was approximately ~20,000. I think the stadium's capacity is 22,500. Last few seasons have been dismal and average attendance is still around 18,500.

Back when we hosted LA Galaxy at the SkyDome, they played in front of approx 48,000 people. Beckham was a big part of that, but still. People do love soccer in this city. People often underestimate how popular it is, and has become, especially recently. I think that there is demand, and the team could meet it, if they could field a better quality product to attract some new fans.
 
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If Toronto could get some winning teams they would have no trouble selling out NFL, MLB, NBA games.
 
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