Toronto St Regis Toronto Hotel and Residences | 281.93m | 58s | JFC Capital | Zeidler

That's a great synopsis, though I think some of those people weren't trying to get 'dirty, stinking rich' but merely get in the game, make some easy money maybe not 'stinking rich money' but in way over their heads and lulled in by a mega con man.

And welcome!

Thanks and I wouldn't know for certain myself, I'm just inferring from what I've read in the article and general reactions here. That said from the interviews they've received in the Toronto Star they certainly thought they make a good bit of money on this investment.
 
Since I seem to be one of the posters whose comments you took issue with, I'll answer the questions that seem directed at my comments.
Why would anyone who lives in Toronto WANT a project to fail?

First off, I'm not sure why you apparently think it is appropriate or desirable that all projects (even crappy ones) should succeed (or not "fail", to be faithful to your words). Moreover, I don't know how the Trump building itself didn't "succeed", given that it is built. A rusting elevator shaft in an empty lot is a "failed" project. A shiny, new operating building is not. The failure in this instance is not the project, but rather (i) the investors, who -- for their own reasons -- believed in a brand and a concept that only an idiot would find credible, and (ii) the developer, but only if the various lawsuits and regulatory actions turn out negatively for the developer, and even then I would guess that any profits that could have been taken were immediately taken and sheltered in a jurisdiction that provides favourable treatment to "that kind" of money.

Would it be offensive if I turned your words around and asked what kind of socialist believes that even bad projects should succeed? I mean that in a lighthearted, Colbertesque way, and am not trying to be offensive. The fact is that the developer disobeyed the law and would have been caught if we spent on securities law enforcement a small fraction of what we spend locking up drug dealers. But even then, I get the impression that people who were dumb enough to buy Trump would not have been deterred by little details like securities fraud charges.

Why would anyone want to feel smug that people could lose money? Just to get a dig in about Trump? To solidify some political or socioeconomic stance?

I don't generally feel smug about people losing money. I'm rather fond of the idea of other people being happy with their lives, loving their families and feeling productive and content as they slowly shuffle off this mortal coil. Losing money would tend to distract from their happiness, etc., so in that sense I think it is bad. But when people put their faith in bad people and do stupid things because of that misplaced faith, I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to take some pleasure in that. How is that wrong? How is it different than the plot of every feel-good movie ever produced? Watching bad people get their comeuppance has been the stock-in-trade, cathartic narrative of most cultures in world history. The Lasceaux cave paintings probably depict the story of a greedy hunter who tried to trap too many animals and was eaten by them.

It's not about Trump, politics or economics per se, but rather it is about human nature's desire for karmic retribution. It's about Aesop's Fables. It's about Confucius. It's about the rapists (and generally bad hosts) of Sodom and Gomorrah who die in a hail of fire and brimstone for abusing a righteous man and his family. It's about Daniel-san executing the perfect crane technique on Johnny's jaw after suffering months of bullying. It's about the lovely, gruesome murder of Penelope's suitors who spend years eating Odysseus' food, drinking his wine and trying to screw his wife and then beat up on an old beggar for fun. It's about Tommy taking out the three Gatlin boys who raped Becky.

To my mind, the real question isn't "what's wrong with me for enjoying the spectacle of the Trump developer and investors descending into a cannibalistic orgy from which neither can possibly gain?". No, the real question is "what's wrong with you that you don't?"
 
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To my mind, the real question isn't "what's wrong with me for enjoying the spectacle of the Trump developer and investors descending into a cannibalistic orgy from which neither can possibly gain?". No, the real question is "what's wrong with you that you don't?"

Great comment, that was a pleasure to read, and a great thesis. are you an english major?:p
 
More from the Star today on the lawsuit. I have mixed feelings. I don't take pleasure in people losing money but I do think people need to do their due diligence when making investment decisions. I also want Trump hotel to be successful because it brings jobs and adds to the economy. However, if the allegations are true that misrepresentations were made and securities laws broken, then I don't think you can completely blame the investors. Trump and the Developer should play by the rules. It will be interesting to see if more investors join the lawsuit.

Trump, Talon International focus of $2.7 million lawsuit by investors
Published 38 minutes ago
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By Susan Pigg Business Reporter
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Trump Tower developer suing 7 disgruntled investors
Lawyers for four investors have launched a multi-million lawsuit against Donald Trump and Talon International Inc. alleging that buyers in one of Toronto’s glitziest hotels were “victims of an investment scheme and conspiracy.”
With just days to go until deals are set to close on dozens of pricey hotel-condo units in Toronto’s Trump International Hotel & Tower, the lawsuit is seeking to have four plaintiffs’ deals rescinded and deposits of more than $173,000 returned.
It’s also seeking more than $2.7 million in damages for the four buyers of the $700,000 to $867,000 hotel-condo units, alleging that Trump, through his marketing clout and partnership with rookie developers Talon International, was integral in convincing novice investors to buy based on “reckless and negligent misrepresentations.”
It goes on to allege that Trump, Talon International and its two principals, Russian billionaire Alex Shnaider and Val Levitan, misled buyers with overly optimistic financial projections about the money-making potential of Toronto’s Trump International Hotel & Tower.
They are also accused of breaching securities laws by violating explicit instructions from the Ontario Securities Commission that the hotel-condos not be sold as lucrative investment opportunities.
When asked for comment, a Talon spokeswoman told the Star: “Now that this matter is before the courts no statement will be made as the court shall deal with this matter in due course.”
“Talon shall vigorously defend this matter,” Dorenda McNeil stated in an email.
Trump Organization litigation counsel Alan Garten stressed that “the project was developed by Talon.
“Trump is not the owner or the developer of the project, it just manages the hotel, which is open and operating and has received rave reviews. This sounds like a case of buyers’ remorse to me.”
The 53-page lawsuit, filed Wednesday, pulls back a massive blackout curtain on a project that seems to have been ill-fated from the start.
While it was actually developed by Talon, “at all material times” buyers were led to believe “it was Trump who would be developing, supervising, overseeing and/or otherwise operating the Trump Hotel,” says the lawsuit.
The 65-storey project, a mix of 261 hotel-condo suites and 118 residential condos, was plagued by a four-year construction delay. Since the hotel opened in March, it has had lower-than-touted hotel occupancy, discounted room rates and a growing tide of investors trying to renege on deals set to close Nov. 29.
At least 40 buyers, many of whom still owe at least $500,000 on their units, have been consulting lawyers, desperate to rescind deals they say no longer make financial sense and retrieve deposits of more than $150,000 before they are turned over to Talon next week.
Lawyer Javad Heydary, who has launched the suit and had a team of eight lawyers examining the complex sales agreements and financial documents over the last three weeks, has discovered about a dozen legal proceedings that are pending or have been completed involving the high-end hotel.
“It was an absolute shock to us to find out that these buyers were of limited means. They, like everyone else, were riding the boom in the condo market and took comfort in the Trump name.”
The four buyers named in the lawsuit — with at least seven more investors likely to join later this week, says Heydary — are 27 to 55 years old. Three live in the GTA, one in Alberta.
They bought units between early 2007 and 2011. Some of them purchased directly from Talon, while others bought that were flipped by earlier buyers as so-called “assignments.” Some were bought on the advice of a realtor.
Plaintiffs Ilsan Kim, 27, and Michelle Park, 35, hadn’t bought real estate before, the suit says. Husband and wife Nahm-Hee Park, 55, and Soon Keon, 53, took money from the sale of their convenience store and bought two $700,000 units which buyers were assured would not only appreciate in value, but produce far more income from nightly stays than the monthly maintenance fees, taxes and other incidentals charged to owners.
Lots of rich sophisticated investors also bought units, many of them U.K. and European investors who are also trying to renege on deals that, in many cases, were recommended as sound investors by financial experts.
According to the lawsuit, Talon has been largely mum since a 2008 financial disclosure document about how the project was doing, other than to tell buyers repeatedly that the opening, originally slated for March 2007, was delayed.
It was just after that time that owners were stunned to find out the units weren’t quite the Hollywood gold they’d been promised, according to details laid out in the lawsuit.
Back in 2004, Talon marketing materials used to launch sales for what was at the time celebrated as Toronto’s first true five-star hotel were full of tables showing what buyers stood to make each year if the hotel was 55 per cent, 65 per cent or 75 per cent full.
Room rates would be $600 a night, sales staff boasted, and likely more “because of the Trump name.”
Last spring, Talon produced the first real financials in years, according to the suit — but only on a suite-by-suite basis, making it difficult for buyers to piece together the bigger picture.
When some did, they were alarmed to discover hotel occupancy was averaging less than 50 per cent much of the time and room rates just $300 or so per night, the lawsuit claims.
At the same time they were hit with maintenance fee increases and commercial property taxes at least 40 per cent more than originally promised.
For those four investors alone, that’s meant losses over the last seven months of anywhere from $28,000 to more than $31,000.
 
I think you need to sober up, dude. Toronto was pretty lame in the 90s: http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/01/toronto_of_the_1990s/

But the city was far worse in the 70s: http://www.blogto.com/city/2011/10/that_time_when_toronto_was_a_city_of_parking_lots/

So... because Toronto had a lot of parking lots and fewer tall, shiny buildings it was worse in the 70's, 80's and 90's. I was there, you clearly weren't, I'm not the one who needs a reality check.

Toronto has always been different, in that a lot of people have always live downtown. Not every city is like that! yes, more people live downtown now than before, but that's besides the point. Downtown used to be way more fun and lively 15 years ago. Now, unless there's an event happening, it's so much more quieter. The entertainment district used to be busy almost every night of the week!

Exactly. Yonge Street had all the hot nightclubs in the 50's, 60's & 70's where legends performed, the major movie cinemas, the best record shops, pinball joints, great restaurants, adult entertainment, the biggest shopping stores until the suburban shopping malls took over in the 70's & 80's, book stores etc. Queen West was offbeat, had the coolest shops that couldn't be found elsewhere, Yorkville blossomed, and it goes on and on. Ethnic neighbourhoods were also forming and expanding through the last half of the 20th century too making Toronto an even more interesting place to live in and explore.
This could be a great discussion & debate on Toronto's growth in the 20th century in an appropriate thread.

On the Trump suites I have to chime in with whether these folks are rich investors or middle income earners betting their retirement savings on one of these units they took a risk with these investments, like many investments risk is involved whether they were mislead or not, which is yet to be seen. I do feel for them though, regardless of whatever their draw was to these properties.
 
To my mind, the real question isn't "what's wrong with me for enjoying the spectacle of the Trump developer and investors descending into a cannibalistic orgy from which neither can possibly gain?". No, the real question is "what's wrong with you that you don't?"

This makes the big assumption that ALL the investors are similar, greedy people, who "deserved" this. I'm betting the reality is there are a mixture of investors from different backgrounds. Even if they are not, I'm not going to assume they're all rich big-shots who needed to get stung by "karma". That story belongs in a tabloid.
 
Such investments come with no guarantees; sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. What is really interesting is whether or not securities laws were broken, and how this will affect the disgruntled investors' case.
 
From today's Star story:
Back in 2004, Talon marketing materials used to launch sales for what was at the time celebrated as Toronto’s first true five-star hotel were full of tables showing what buyers stood to make each year if the hotel was 55 per cent, 65 per cent or 75 per cent full. Room rates would be $600 a night, sales staff boasted, and likely more “because of the Trump name.â€

I'm not saying that all of the investors were bad people, I'm saying that they allowed themselves to be guided by, and placed their faith in, bad people. And they got stung for doing so, which is in keeping with the classic retribution narrative. In all of the examples I cited previously, it was not only the ringleaders who got their asses kicked in retribution, but also their hangers-on (all of Penelope's suitors (not just the worst), all of the Sodomites (not just the rapists), all of Cobra Kai (not just the sensei)).
 
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These particular "investors" sound to me like the same group who would jump all over a time share and sign up because of the out of this world returns stipulated in the presentation while free wine and cheese was served. Looking back at some of my ETFs and stocks, I'd like to sue the TSX and NASDAQ too. Class action anyone? C'mon, who's with me? ;)
 
Such investments come with no guarantees; sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. What is really interesting is whether or not securities laws were broken, and how this will affect the disgruntled investors' case.

Violation of explicit instructions set forth by the Ontario Securities Commission may be their best argument right now. Will see what transpires...
 
My initial thoughts regarding this brewing story were initially 'sad investors, who didn't do their due diligence and want out, now that its not giving them the returns they were expecting'. Yet, when I think about this whole fiasco, I can't help but think about those who are involved. Mr. Trump, a man who would stamp his TRUMP moniker on a piece of dog shit if it made him some money, not to mention obsessed with low-class gaudiness and style. Then my mind turns to Mr. Schnaider. A supposed exceptional business man, who essentially profited from purchasing (aka stealing) from post-soviet states, as their economies collapsed. Nationalized industries were sold off and privatized for almost nothing to Russian oligarchs (mafia) - Mr. Schnaider being one such oligarch. Why is he here in Canada? Because we are naive to his crooked ways, and well, money talks.

So when you add up this equation...Its just basic math in the end. 1+1 = 6 for prospective buyers, (but really its 1.5, after the reality of this shady deal sets in).

p5
 
My initial thoughts regarding this brewing story were initially 'sad investors, who didn't do their due diligence and want out, now that its not giving them the returns they were expecting'. Yet, when I think about this whole fiasco, I can't help but think about those who are involved. Mr. Trump, a man who would stamp his TRUMP moniker on a piece of dog shit if it made him some money, not to mention obsessed with low-class gaudiness and style. Then my mind turns to Mr. Schnaider. A supposed exceptional business man, who essentially profited from purchasing (aka stealing) from post-soviet states, as their economies collapsed. Nationalized industries were sold off and privatized for almost nothing to Russian oligarchs (mafia) - Mr. Schnaider being one such oligarch. Why is he here in Canada? Because we are naive to his crooked ways, and well, money talks.

So when you add up this equation...Its just basic math in the end. 1+1 = 6 for prospective buyers, (but really its 1.5, after the reality of this shady deal sets in).

p5

Schnaider's a pretty interesting story, or at least I expect his story would be interesting if it were ever known. Suffice to say that, if Schnaider is a bad person, Canada is as much to blame for how he turned out. He grew up in TO (went to high school in North York) and some might say he's the embodiment of a Canadian success story. Reading the lines of various profiles (and filling in the spaces between the lines), Schnaider apparently learned the ropes from an actual old-school oligarch (his father-in-law) but the two had a falling out because Schnaider's business practices were too underhanded for an old-school oligarch to stomach. It stands to reason that, if the Russians think his behaviour is poor, the poor behaviour is more a Canadian trait than a Russian one.
 
These particular "investors" sound to me like the same group who would jump all over a time share and sign up because of the out of this world returns stipulated in the presentation while free wine and cheese was served. Looking back at some of my ETFs and stocks, I'd like to sue the TSX and NASDAQ too. Class action anyone? C'mon, who's with me? ;)

I have been to those high pressure Time Share presentations, i just kept reminding myself..."If it's too good to be true, it probably is" Condo hotels sound like a good idea in theory, but I have never heard of any that were anything but a total disaster (for the buyers). Mainly because the unit prices were way too high and the rental income assumptions way too optimistic.
 

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