Can't we all just get along? The car, bicycle, skateboard, pedestrian et al debate

[calimehtar]

Random idea for improving cycling in the city: I recently started commuting from a relatively central, bike-friendly area out to the suburbs. I've noticed that at the same time as there are too few bike lanes further out, there are areas with very wide sidewalks and almost no pedestrians. My conscience rarely allows me to bike on the sidewalk but it's clearly the logical thing to do.

My solution: bike lanes on sidewalks.

The strongest candidates are:

1. Sheppard which happens to be a great way to go east/west across the ravine at Earl Bales Park since there's a bridge at Sheppard.
2. The Kingsway at the western edge of Scarborough, above the bluffs
3. Yonge street on either side of York Mills

Obviously this idea doesn't work in more places than it works. There's be almost nowhere downtown or in the old city of Toronto where it would be feasible since the sidewalks are generally narrow and crowded. But when it does work: instant separated bike lanes.

 

[James]

...
I tried...Bayview, Leslie, Kingston road, Don Mills, Lawrence. Aside from the appalling condition of many of the roads it was clear there just is no sense of drivers and cyclists. I was momentarily thrilled to find the bike lane on Pharmacy...but sadly it had already been scraped clean by city workers.

Today I fought my way up Leslie, squeezing between the curb and the slow moving traffic, trying to stay in front of cars at the lights so they might have some chance of seeing me.
...

Unfortunately, those streets are horrendous for cyclists. Standard-width roads designed for automobiles, large distance between traffic lights (i.e. faster vehicles), few other cyclists (i.e. drivers not expecting to see a bicycle on the road), etc. I would personally be a little nervous riding on any of those aforementioned streets.

 

[LordWanker]

As a pedestrian in Copenhagen or Amsterdam, if you so much as step onto a bike lane for a split second you will be sternly scolded by at least a few cyclists whizzing by. And that's how it has to be for things to function in places where people are expected to actually think.

Conversely you should be behaving in a predictable manner when cycling on the street i.e. follow the same laws as cars. Your choice really, cycle safely or deal with the consequences of physics.

 

[James]

Conversely you should be behaving in a predictable manner when cycling on the street i.e. follow the same laws as cars. Your choice really, cycle safely or deal with the consequences of physics.

Behaving in a predictable manner is precisely how people get from one side of the street to the other amongst the constant steady flow of drivers, bicyclists and pedestrians in places like Mumbai or Hanoi. That said, Toronto has nowhere near the congestion of those cities and both vehicles & bicycles tend to travel at much faster speeds as well.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I can't attest to the quality of Toronto drivers but the one thing I know for certain is that we have a lot of space out there by international standards. Vast amounts of space. I would not enjoy commuting down a major suburban arterial on a bike but I have never felt that traffic in the inner city was ever an impediment to cycling (I'm an occasional cyclist but it used to be my primary mode of transit for 10 years).

As a cyclist my greatest issues were not actually automobile drivers, they were: Bad weather, bad road surface conditions, taxi's, public transit but very much in particular buses and streetcar tracks, parked vehicles, unaware pedestrians. I don't think bad car drivers or intimidation from car traffic even makes my top 10.

 

[neubilder]

I don't think bad car drivers or intimidation from car traffic even makes my top 10.

Who's talking about intimidation from cars? The knife edge of a suddenly opened door slicing your neck or groin at 20km'hr is not intimidation, it's mutilation. So is a car pulling straight into your path of travel as though you don't exist. Or changing lanes, on top of you. Or turning, into you where your only alternative to being wedged is to hit a hydro pole.

 

[neubilder]

While I'm here I'm going to air another grievance:

The term 'door prize' really pisses me off. My friend who had to have full reconstructive surgery and couldn't walk for months hardly thought of it as a prize. Certainly the family of the girl in West Van, who in the late 80's in attempting to avoid her 'door prize' met her fate in the wheels of a dump truck driving beside her, didn't consider it to be much of a prize.

People must be made to realize the seriousness of their actions. A guy the other day who doored me (I was fine because I am always expecting it and keep a safe distance, but his timing seemed as though he was aiming for me) answered that he "was just opening his goddamn door".

One man's egress is another man's demise.

I kept my cool but he deserved a punch in the face. The LEAST someone can do is show remorse and acknowledge their mistake.

 

[neubilder]

They guy was in his late 40's driving a white Audi a3 in front of Camera on Queen West. Salt and pepper hair. If anyone knows him, he needs a lecture.

 

[nfitz]

People must be made to realize the seriousness of their actions. A guy the other day who doored me (I was fine because I am always expecting it and keep a safe distance, but his timing seemed as though he was aiming for me) answered that he "was just opening his goddamn door".

There is a reason bicycles are supposed to go down the middle of the lane, not hug the curb so closely, that pedestrians standing to cross the intersection are at risk of being hit.

I clearly remember being instructed when I was in school many decades ago, to not go down the edge of the lane, so that you aren't hit by things like doors.

I'm not sure why cyclists in Toronto fail to assert their right to the entire lane. By not doing so, they take away one of the safeguards they have against accidents.

At the same time, car drivers must watch out for these things.

 

[LordWanker]

While I'm here I'm going to air another grievance:

The term 'door prize' really pisses me off. My friend who had to have full reconstructive surgery and couldn't walk for months hardly thought of it as a prize. Certainly the family of the girl in West Van, who in the late 80's in attempting to avoid her 'door prize' met her fate in the wheels of a dump truck driving beside her, didn't consider it to be much of a prize.

People must be made to realize the seriousness of their actions. A guy the other day who doored me (I was fine because I am always expecting it and keep a safe distance, but his timing seemed as though he was aiming for me) answered that he "was just opening his goddamn door".

One man's egress is another man's demise.

I kept my cool but he deserved a punch in the face. The LEAST someone can do is show remorse and acknowledge their mistake.

Do you not look ahead? It is not that difficult to see if someone is sitting in the driver's seat.

 

[Ice_Burn]

Do you not look ahead? It is not that difficult to see if someone is sitting in the driver's seat.

A driver sitting in a seat doesn't necessarily mean they're getting out right then or even at all. It is the responsibility of the driver to look before opening a door into a bike lane, as the cyclist has 100 other things to monitor rather than attempting to anticipate whether the dude at the wheel is idling, about to exit the car, or otherwise. It IS 'that difficult' to assess these things from a line of parked cars when you're trying to avoid traffic on the other side of you.

 

[James]

A driver sitting in a seat doesn't necessarily mean they're getting out right then or even at all. It is the responsibility of the driver to look before opening a door into a bike lane, as the cyclist has 100 other things to monitor rather than attempting to anticipate whether the dude at the wheel is idling, about to exit the car, or otherwise. It IS 'that difficult' to assess these things from a line of parked cars when you're trying to avoid traffic on the other side of you.

If I'm parallel parked on the street, I always double-check my side mirror for both cars and cyclists before either opening my door or pulling out of the spot. It's quite difficult to anticipate a sudden car door swinging open.

That said, when I was a downtown cyclist, my biggest concerns were cars making right hand turns on a green light too quickly. Each time I'd approach an intersection at a green, I'd double-check behind me to make sure it was safe to cycle through. Despite having right-of-way, I'd rather be overly cautious and alive as opposed to diplomatically correct and dead. The other concern was, in actuality, having my bike stolen...which ironically, happened when it was locked up at the U of T athletic center.

 

[ttk77]

As a pedestrian I am amazed by how few drivers actually check right before turning right on a red. They'll check left to make sure there's no car coming, but they'll only check right once they've actually started the turn. By then it's too late for any pedestrian at the corner trying to cross. I don't start to cross the road anymore unless I've made eye contact with the driver at the intersection.

 

[the lemur]

There's be almost nowhere downtown or in the old city of Toronto where it would be feasible since the sidewalks are generally narrow and crowded. But when it does work: instant separated bike lanes.

But we do have a few stretches of downtown sidewalk that are actually unusually wide, particularly in relation to pedestrian volume. Queen and King, for example, but I imagine the problem with putting bike lanes into them would be utility poles and tree drip lines, among other things.

 

[neubilder]

Do you not look ahead? It is not that difficult to see if someone is sitting in the driver's seat.

If you read my post you would have noticed that "(I was fine because I am always expecting it and keep a safe distance)".

If you think checking the rear windows of parallel parked cars, suv's, cars with backrests, tinted windows, vans with no windows, etc... will keep you safe, then good luck to you. Moreover, if you think the onus is on the cyclist to anticipate what you might be doing while you're sitting, parked, in the drivers' seat, wanker, then I'd say you're due for a good lecture too.