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Baby, we got a bubble!?

The comment CDR has quoted above sounds intuitively reasonable to me. While I don't doubt that foreign nouveau riche investors have added to the price increases, I think the absence of hard numbers is telling and the majority of the increase derives from the local market.

Ultimately, looking at the recent Toronto market for example, price increases are deriving from normal demand chasing record low supply. It is the locals who aren't reselling who are responsible for the price increases. Why they aren't selling? I don't know. i think any release of pent of supply would have a big effect on the market, but there's been little indication of such a release and who knows when (or if) such a release might occur.

As we have said in the past, at any one time I would think only a small proportion of houses are up for sale. Perhaps 5%. So it is the marginal price ask that dictates. If it is the less than 1% that cdr suggests; the questions I think that needs to be posed is:
Does less than 1% of 5% influence the market? And if so, what percentage of that less than1% are willing to bid and pay 10-30% over present value assuming that is the amount over present value.

That said, I still think if/when mortgage rates rise, if the market is mainly local, then locals who look to buy to live will apply metrics that they can afford. Also, given the world awash in money and eventually delevering presumably starting to occur, should prices still be rising?

the more stories I read like this just convince me that reason has been tossed by the wayside and usually that ends badly. Having said all that, I will not be surprised if the "irrationality" as exhibited continues a while longer.
 
i think these 2 are right.
looking at MLS, it appears everything 3 blocks west + east of Yonge Street are around the $1 million mark; which leads me to believe it has more to do with land value and development potential. 5 properties are enough to build 2 x 25+s towers


If they're going to bulldoze the home to put a new one in its place, then the fact that it's a shabby bungalow has no bearing on the value of the property to investor. If this lot is in a really good location, it may not have been that bad a purchase decision.

Actually, I was not surprised at all that it went for $1.18 m. Check MLS and all these old bungalows in NYCC East of Yonge with 40+ ft frontage—they usually listed for at least 900K. There is a similar bungalow (60ft frontage, close to Yonge) listed for 1.48mln (MLS®: C2294826). What does surprise me that the area (NYCC, East of Yonge, between Finch and Sheppard) used to have the lowest median income in the NYCC--according to 2006 census, it was 52K (compare it to 71K West of Yonge or 77K South-West of Yonge). Well, maybe it went through intense gentrification, boosted by Earl Haig school appeal to Asian investors. The latest numbers from the 2011 census might confirm it.
 
i think these 2 are right.
looking at MLS, it appears everything 3 blocks west + east of Yonge Street are around the $1 million mark; which leads me to believe it has more to do with land value and development potential. 5 properties are enough to build 2 x 25+s towers

So cdr are you suggesting you believe the buyer was in fact a front for a developer. Could be I suppose. One would not want to be the developer knocking because you know prices would absolutely go through the roof on you.
 
So cdr are you suggesting you believe the buyer was in fact a front for a developer. Could be I suppose. One would not want to be the developer knocking because you know prices would absolutely go through the roof on you.



i don't know if the buyer was a front or actual purchaser; however, what i'm saying is I think the price is more reflective of developable land value. new condos in teh Y&S / Y&F area go for $500-600 psf, so unless those bungalows are renovated and 1,700 - 2,000 sf, it's the land
 
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Here’s some excellent comments below by Andrew LaFleur (originally posted on the BuzzBuzz blog) which probably best explain what’s happening. I'd say the dynamics are in place for another 5% price gain this Spring...



I'm not going to defend or accuse the agent and the buyer in this case because I don't know the market in this area and I have no idea what went down on this particular bidding war.

BUT I will say that it's that time of year again! Every year in March I see this. The market changes. Old price points are surpassed, new precedents are set, and the first time buyers who have been looking for the past few months, maybe they have lost out on a bidding war or two are caught with their pants down and the market just blows them over. It may very well be that the new normal for a bungalow in this 'hood is now $1M+. Doesn't matter that none have sold more than $900K (if that is truly the case).

You may have been able to buy something just a few weeks ago that now costs 5% more or 3 months ago and now it's 10% more. That's what happens every year as the spring market takes off and the perpetually high demand of Toronto real estate hits the perpetually low supply of properties available for sale. KA-BOOM! prices just went up.

Anecdote: I was in a bidding war this week with some first timers. 2011 sales for units (with minimal updates) in the building averaged around $280K. this unit had about $25K worth of updates. Was listed at $320K. Just sold for $356K! 6 offers. Listing agent even admitted it was not priced for a bidding war! What do you think the next listing in the building is going to be listed for?
 
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http://urbanationinc.blogspot.com/2012/03/why-rent-to-resale-calculations-are.html?spref=tw

Why Rent-to-Resale Calculations are Bunk

We read a great blog post recently by John Pasalis of Realosophy: click here
John touched on 'rent multiples' and that several reports on the Canadian housing market have used this measure to determine that Canada and several areas within it are "overvalued". The hypothesis is that the gap between the average rent and the average resale price has been expanding and that the average rent is a baseline for affordability, and that an area is valued ‘correctly’ or the area is balanced if the average rent and average price move in parallel. John puts it in slightly different terms:

The theory is that house prices should be appreciating at a similar rate to rents. If house prices start to appreciate at a much faster rate than rents it suggests that house prices are overvalued... ...Eventually, more people start renting until rents rise and/or house prices fall to a level where there is no material financial benefit to renting over buying.

Many of the charts for major Canadian centres shows that the gap between the average resale price and average rent has widened and the conclusion naturally is that housing in overvalued. Not sure why this doesn't suggest that rents are undervalued, and a major upward correction in rents is imminent?

Regardless, this methodology is fatally flawed for several reasons: it does not factor in the age, size and exact location of the units in question. Secondly, the source of the rental information has been called into question, especially with the major expansion of the private rental market, the inclusion/exclusion of heat, hydro, water, cable etc. A third major factor is the existence of rent controls in certain areas. A fourth factor is the existence of a low interest rate environment that allows the average home owner to purchase a larger, more expensive home (or simply get in the market) with a lower monthly payment.

The key point to take out of the above is the first one. We are a firm that looks at averages frequently, but they can often mask or misrepresent data due to outliers and other factors. And consequentially, WHEN DRAWING CONCLUSIONS BASED ON THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TWO VARIABLES, ONE MUST CONSIDER A THIRD (or fourth, fifth, sixth, etc) VARIABLE THAT COULD BE INFLUENCING THE RELATIONSHIP.

We'll provide a simple example using sports. Let's say I took three NBA teams (Spurs, Lakers, Magic) and looked at their average rebounds per game in a year and their winning percentage in those years. Wow, the relationship shows that a major improvement in rebounds per game in 97-98 led to much higher wins for the Spurs that year. We also saw rebounds and wins jump for the Lakers and 96-97, but both dropped in 04-05. There was a major improvement in 04-05 in rebounds and wins for the Magic.

Therefore we draw the conclusion that the more rebounds you get, the more wins your team will get. The Raptors see this data and go out and sign 5 guys that are 7'3" tall. The next year the Raps dominate the league in rebounding but win only 5 games, what! They should have seen an increase in wins right? Wrong, the five players can't cover anyone on the outside, can't play defence, but because they are tall they get lots of rebounds. They can't shoot, so they keep grabbing their own offensive rebounds and missing again!
So what went wrong in our analysis above? There was a third factor that contributed both to the increase and decrease in rebounds and wins in the above example, the Spurs added Tim Duncan in 04-05, Shaq came to the Lakers from 1996 to 2004 and the Orlando Magic added Dwight Howard in 2004 and all added new dynamics to their teams including shot blocking, scoring, passing, and confidence, in addition to their rebounding skills.

This is a typical example given in any economist's first year Econometrics class. The economists making these 'overvalued' statements should pull that textbook back off the shelf and take a look at it again. In economics you must 'control' outside variables, keep them as constant as possible so you can really determine the relationship between the two variables you are looking at.

In terms of rent multiples, you could potentially have a beach city building tons of 2,000 sf rentals overlooking the ocean and small 1,000 sf bungalows on outskirts of town and you compare that to a town building a bunch of 3,000 sf McMansions on estate lots and then small rentals on the outskirts near an industrial park, the rental multiples will be very different for those to areas, which one is really overvalued?

Although our data (from our UrbanRental report) is limited, having only begun collecting data for our reports over the past two years, we looked at the relationship between index rents and index prices in the Toronto CMA condominium apartment market. To avoid having the data skewed by location or age of product, we looked at ‘matching pairs’ of data only, dividing the average price psf by the average rent psf at a specific building. We looked at the weighted average (by total resale and rental transactions) of our rental multiple for some of the top municipalities and the Toronto CMA overall by looking at data points for the same buildings in Q4-2010 and Q4-2011. Using the index price and index rent, further controls for the size of the suites. In this example we were able to control for the location, age and size of the units. However, there are a few measures we couldn't control for: the floor that the unit is on (condo rentals tend to be on lower floors), parking (more units are rented without parking than resale units), renovations (resale units tend to be renovated more often than rental suites), terraces (units with large terraces or balconies tend to be owner occupied), etc, etc. See the table below.




If the hypothesis of a ‘balanced’ market held true, the rent multiples would remain the same year-over-year, however all the major municipalities increased with the exception of Richmond Hill. Therefore all markets are, in effect, less affordable than last year if one believes that rental rates are the baseline for affordability. The Toronto CMA is 3.1% less affordable (or overvalued) in comparison to last year.

Scarborough’s rent multiple increased by 10% in Q4-2011 over Q4-2010, the largest increase among the municipalities above, followed by Vaughan at 7.4% and Mississauga at 6.6%. The former City of Toronto increased by just 1.4%.

Urbanation would find it hard to believe that Scarborough condominium apartment units became much more overvalued than the former City of Toronto in 2011 and that Richmond Hill units became more affordable. According to John Pasalis, even Windsor is currently overvalued based on the metrics discussed earlier.

At Urbanation we do not believe that pricing will go up forever, or that Toronto's condominium market is not showing potential signs of future weakness, however is not because of an "out of whack" rent multiple. Look to Urbanation for reasoned, unbiased data on Toronto's condominium market from the firm that has tracked it longer than any other firm.
 
BUT I will say that it's that time of year again! Every year in March I see this. The market changes. Old price points are surpassed, new precedents are set, and the first time buyers who have been looking for the past few months, maybe they have lost out on a bidding war or two are caught with their pants down and the market just blows them over. It may very well be that the new normal for a bungalow in this 'hood is now $1M+. Doesn't matter that none have sold more than $900K (if that is truly the case).

You may have been able to buy something just a few weeks ago that now costs 5% more or 3 months ago and now it's 10% more. That's what happens every year as the spring market takes off and the perpetually high demand of Toronto real estate hits the perpetually low supply of properties available for sale. KA-BOOM! prices just went up.

Anecdote: I was in a bidding war this week with some first timers. 2011 sales for units (with minimal updates) in the building averaged around $280K. this unit had about $25K worth of updates. Was listed at $320K. Just sold for $356K! 6 offers. Listing agent even admitted it was not priced for a bidding war! What do you think the next listing in the building is going to be listed for?
He conveniently leaves out the part where prices often have decreased in the prior winter months.

In any case, while spring is the time of increased competition by buyers, which does drive up pricing, that still doesn't make paying 56% over asking any less moronic.

As I've mentioned before, all three of our purchases in the last 5 years - during sellers' markets - have been well below asking price. We have specifically resisted bidding wars when we thought the pricing wasn't reflective of the property's worth. In one case, I was ready to bid x amount, with x + ~5% being my absolute maximum. Note that it was a unique architecture, already commanding a 10% premium or so over adjacent homes. I ended up not bidding at all because my agent said x + 5% was where other bidders were starting, and it eventually went for 15.8% over my initial intended bid. The thing about this house wasn't that it was so awesome. It did have unique features, but it also had been marketed extremely well and priced low, which meant it got a ton of interest. However it did also have some significant deficiencies (some not easily correctable) for a home in that price range, which should have tempered offers.

Part of the multiple bidding process' problem is the fact it is a blind bidding process for the buyers. To turn it around, when I listed my condo, it was for y, and I was hoping to get about y + 1% or 2%, which was the selling price of an identical unit a few months prior. With the slightly low list price I got a ton of interest, and two bids. One was at y - 1.4%, and the other was at y + 7.1%. That's a difference of 8.6% between the two bids. Guess which one I took.

Also, an anecdote to counter his. A house went on sale here for the mid $700s. It went in a bidding war for ~$830000. IMO the pricing was low and perhaps a high $700s would have been an appropriate price, so perhaps it went for 5% over what I considered fair market price. Why do I think I am in the right pricing ballpark with my high $700s guesstimate? The neighbour put up an identical house for sale in the low $800s after that. He didn't even get a single offer.
 
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Here’s some excellent comments below by Andrew LaFleur (originally posted on the BuzzBuzz blog) which probably best explain what’s happening. I'd say the dynamics are in place for another 5% price gain this Spring...



I'm not going to defend or accuse the agent and the buyer in this case because I don't know the market in this area and I have no idea what went down on this particular bidding war.

BUT I will say that it's that time of year again! Every year in March I see this. The market changes. Old price points are surpassed, new precedents are set, and the first time buyers who have been looking for the past few months, maybe they have lost out on a bidding war or two are caught with their pants down and the market just blows them over. It may very well be that the new normal for a bungalow in this 'hood is now $1M+. Doesn't matter that none have sold more than $900K (if that is truly the case).

You may have been able to buy something just a few weeks ago that now costs 5% more or 3 months ago and now it's 10% more. That's what happens every year as the spring market takes off and the perpetually high demand of Toronto real estate hits the perpetually low supply of properties available for sale. KA-BOOM! prices just went up.

Anecdote: I was in a bidding war this week with some first timers. 2011 sales for units (with minimal updates) in the building averaged around $280K. this unit had about $25K worth of updates. Was listed at $320K. Just sold for $356K! 6 offers. Listing agent even admitted it was not priced for a bidding war! What do you think the next listing in the building is going to be listed for?

If one goes to the guava site and looks historically, A. Lafleur is correct and one routinely sees price increases until May or June; followed by a fall and a rise again around September. May is often the peak for the year.

However this logic exhibited in the quote is exactly the definition of "bubble territory". People bidding with virtually no regard to the value in an attempt at chasing something at "whatever" the cost. That is simply not sustainable.
 
http://urbanationinc.blogspot.com/2012/03/why-rent-to-resale-calculations-are.html?spref=tw

Why Rent-to-Resale Calculations are Bunk

We read a great blog post recently by John Pasalis of Realosophy: click here
John touched on 'rent multiples' and that several reports on the Canadian housing market have used this measure to determine that Canada and several areas within it are "overvalued". The hypothesis is that the gap between the average rent and the average resale price has been expanding and that the average rent is a baseline for affordability, and that an area is valued ‘correctly’ or the area is balanced if the average rent and average price move in parallel. John puts it in slightly different terms:

The theory is that house prices should be appreciating at a similar rate to rents. If house prices start to appreciate at a much faster rate than rents it suggests that house prices are overvalued... ...Eventually, more people start renting until rents rise and/or house prices fall to a level where there is no material financial benefit to renting over buying.

Many of the charts for major Canadian centres shows that the gap between the average resale price and average rent has widened and the conclusion naturally is that housing in overvalued. Not sure why this doesn't suggest that rents are undervalued, and a major upward correction in rents is imminent?

Regardless, this methodology is fatally flawed for several reasons: it does not factor in the age, size and exact location of the units in question. Secondly, the source of the rental information has been called into question, especially with the major expansion of the private rental market, the inclusion/exclusion of heat, hydro, water, cable etc. A third major factor is the existence of rent controls in certain areas. A fourth factor is the existence of a low interest rate environment that allows the average home owner to purchase a larger, more expensive home (or simply get in the market) with a lower monthly payment.

The key point to take out of the above is the first one. We are a firm that looks at averages frequently, but they can often mask or misrepresent data due to outliers and other factors. And consequentially, WHEN DRAWING CONCLUSIONS BASED ON THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TWO VARIABLES, ONE MUST CONSIDER A THIRD (or fourth, fifth, sixth, etc) VARIABLE THAT COULD BE INFLUENCING THE RELATIONSHIP.

We'll provide a simple example using sports. Let's say I took three NBA teams (Spurs, Lakers, Magic) and looked at their average rebounds per game in a year and their winning percentage in those years. Wow, the relationship shows that a major improvement in rebounds per game in 97-98 led to much higher wins for the Spurs that year. We also saw rebounds and wins jump for the Lakers and 96-97, but both dropped in 04-05. There was a major improvement in 04-05 in rebounds and wins for the Magic.

Therefore we draw the conclusion that the more rebounds you get, the more wins your team will get. The Raptors see this data and go out and sign 5 guys that are 7'3" tall. The next year the Raps dominate the league in rebounding but win only 5 games, what! They should have seen an increase in wins right? Wrong, the five players can't cover anyone on the outside, can't play defence, but because they are tall they get lots of rebounds. They can't shoot, so they keep grabbing their own offensive rebounds and missing again!
So what went wrong in our analysis above? There was a third factor that contributed both to the increase and decrease in rebounds and wins in the above example, the Spurs added Tim Duncan in 04-05, Shaq came to the Lakers from 1996 to 2004 and the Orlando Magic added Dwight Howard in 2004 and all added new dynamics to their teams including shot blocking, scoring, passing, and confidence, in addition to their rebounding skills.

This is a typical example given in any economist's first year Econometrics class. The economists making these 'overvalued' statements should pull that textbook back off the shelf and take a look at it again. In economics you must 'control' outside variables, keep them as constant as possible so you can really determine the relationship between the two variables you are looking at.

In terms of rent multiples, you could potentially have a beach city building tons of 2,000 sf rentals overlooking the ocean and small 1,000 sf bungalows on outskirts of town and you compare that to a town building a bunch of 3,000 sf McMansions on estate lots and then small rentals on the outskirts near an industrial park, the rental multiples will be very different for those to areas, which one is really overvalued?

Although our data (from our UrbanRental report) is limited, having only begun collecting data for our reports over the past two years, we looked at the relationship between index rents and index prices in the Toronto CMA condominium apartment market. To avoid having the data skewed by location or age of product, we looked at ‘matching pairs’ of data only, dividing the average price psf by the average rent psf at a specific building. We looked at the weighted average (by total resale and rental transactions) of our rental multiple for some of the top municipalities and the Toronto CMA overall by looking at data points for the same buildings in Q4-2010 and Q4-2011. Using the index price and index rent, further controls for the size of the suites. In this example we were able to control for the location, age and size of the units. However, there are a few measures we couldn't control for: the floor that the unit is on (condo rentals tend to be on lower floors), parking (more units are rented without parking than resale units), renovations (resale units tend to be renovated more often than rental suites), terraces (units with large terraces or balconies tend to be owner occupied), etc, etc. See the table below.




If the hypothesis of a ‘balanced’ market held true, the rent multiples would remain the same year-over-year, however all the major municipalities increased with the exception of Richmond Hill. Therefore all markets are, in effect, less affordable than last year if one believes that rental rates are the baseline for affordability. The Toronto CMA is 3.1% less affordable (or overvalued) in comparison to last year.

Scarborough’s rent multiple increased by 10% in Q4-2011 over Q4-2010, the largest increase among the municipalities above, followed by Vaughan at 7.4% and Mississauga at 6.6%. The former City of Toronto increased by just 1.4%.

Urbanation would find it hard to believe that Scarborough condominium apartment units became much more overvalued than the former City of Toronto in 2011 and that Richmond Hill units became more affordable. According to John Pasalis, even Windsor is currently overvalued based on the metrics discussed earlier.

At Urbanation we do not believe that pricing will go up forever, or that Toronto's condominium market is not showing potential signs of future weakness, however is not because of an "out of whack" rent multiple. Look to Urbanation for reasoned, unbiased data on Toronto's condominium market from the firm that has tracked it longer than any other firm.

All of us this site are suffering from some bias based on our pre beliefs. I try personally and be objective but I am sure I am not totally. That said, urbanation makes its money selling research to the development industry. To me, I have read the arguments and I agree with parts of it but on the balance it just sounds like an attempt to justify that there is no need to have a relationship between price and rent. To accept such a premise while it may hold for some periods of time would be to say that economics has no place in what I believe are to a degree economic decisions. We could argue that the macro picture is not reflective of the micro picture but to basically say there is no basis in any economics and try and put arguments up as posed here to justify it to me suggests that the conclusion is driving the hypothesis. It should be the other way around. Make the hypothesis and try and prove it with cohesive arguments. I find the above rationale is simply the same approach as in the OJ Simpson trial. Let's throw up racism as the issue and make this the issue instead of murder of his wife and divert the argument so that no justirfication can be produced. This is also the same approach politicians do....not answer the question but go onto an answer which suits the argument.

I think it is good that both arguments are reviewed and considered. Again, Urbanation is a very interested party to continuing price increases. If the market stops, developers don't build, they don't buy Urbanations product. We apply this to Realtors and accept that it may be difficult for them to seperate their own individual needs from the overall reality. Would not the same argument apply to urbanation. Note: that does not mean I disregard what they say. I think they put out good data...I just don't necessarily agree wtith some of their conclusions.
 
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i don't know if the buyer was a front or actual purchaser; however, what i'm saying is I think the price is more reflective of developable land value. new condos in teh Y&S / Y&F area go for $500-600 psf, so unless those bungalows are renovated and 1,700 - 2,000 sf, it's the land

I would add that, considering relatively low selling price of $1.18m, the house is not in the best NYCC location--as I mentioned in my previous post, there is a similar sized bungalow priced at $1.49m. These bungalows are of no interest to big developers; usually, the land is used to build a huge 4-6k sq ft mansion or for the purpose of severance through COA/OMB application.

Funny how misleading the press sometimes ... A big front-page title in G&M stated something like "750K bungalow went for 450K over asking price". I think the proper title should be "RE agent undervalued a bungalow by 450K for a quick sale".
 
I would add that, considering relatively low selling price of $1.18m, the house is not in the best NYCC location--as I mentioned in my previous post, there is a similar sized bungalow priced at $1.49m. These bungalows are of no interest to big developers; usually, the land is used to build a huge 4-6k sq ft mansion or for the purpose of severance through COA/OMB application.

Funny how misleading the press sometimes ... A big front-page title in G&M stated something like "750K bungalow went for 450K over asking price". I think the proper title should be "RE agent undervalued a bungalow by 450K for a quick sale".
It says right in the article that similar bungalows went for below $900000.

Furthermore, the real estate agents who represented the seller said they had no idea whatsoever that the property would fetch this kind of money.

So, it sounds like you're rationalizing the absurd price, for some very odd reason. Even if we give them the benefit of the doubt and it was actually worth $1 million (which is a third higher than asking), $1.18 is still absurd.
 
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It says right in the article that similar bungalows went for below $900000.

Furthermore, the real estate agents who represented the seller said they had no idea whatsoever that the property would fetch this kind of money.

So, it sounds like you're rationalizing the absurd price, for some very odd reason. Even if we give them the benefit of the doubt and it was actually worth $1 million (which is a third higher than asking), $1.18 is still absurd.

The February median price for C14 (NYCC, East of Yonge, the median prices usually show a typical bungalow price) is $1.19m. If there was a 900K sale, it might be of similar bungalow on a much smaller lot (usually 30-40ft). So, I am just stating what happens in the area while you are objecting to the facts... for some unknown reason.
 
From my analysis of the sales within 3-5 square blocks the house did go for more than it appeared to have been worth at least $100k more which is without a doubt a lot. Had I listed that property I would not in a million years have suggested the seller list at $141k less than the lowest effective comparables of $900k, or 85% of lowest market value. To be shocked with the results and then sensationalize it as though it was over-bid by more than 50% boggles my mind.

Here is the question I have with this bungalow’s sale price and the hoopla surrounding it. It was the first thought to cross my mind and is the only thought I still have after reviewing the listing and the comparable sales – did this young woman make an informed decision?
 
...

Here is the question I have with this bungalow’s sale price and the hoopla surrounding it. It was the first thought to cross my mind and is the only thought I still have after reviewing the listing and the comparable sales – did this young woman make an informed decision?
It is hard to say without knowing the exact location of the house... If it is close to Yonge and on a street that already has some divided lots, it might be a good deal. Some areas in C14 are less attractive and the selling price might be too high. I am still not sure why the prices overall are so high there... Just cross the Yonge and you can save 100K+.
 
I know the address and reviewed the listing and comps but RECO's and TREB's rules don't allow me to publish it especially since it wasn't released in media print.
 

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