Miller will not be running for Mayor, How will this affect Public Transit?

[nfitz]

^ Sure. But several accounts suggest the only reason it ended up in the 25 year plan in the first place was because Toronto's politicians were not warm to the idea.

Giambone had already said by then that they'd by looking at starting work on it in 2018 or so (when construction finished on the 7 Transit City routes); which presumably would take the 2-year preliminary study, and then the typical 7-year from approval to opening, which gives 9 years, and a 2027 opening (using the back of an envelope. Which is 18-years out ... so surely Metrolinx put it right where Toronto put it, in the 15-25 year timeframe.

 

[Dan416]

That's kind of funny/sad because it's the DRL we need NOW, not Spadina or Yonge or any of Transit City.

 

[gweed123]

That's kind of funny/sad because it's the DRL we need NOW, not Spadina or Yonge or any of Transit City.

No we don't. We'd rather spend billions on new lines that make it faster to reach a backlog on the 2 lines going into downtown... Hopefully the decision makers will realize this negative outcome sooner rather than later.

 

[doady]

This is the same trap as Sheppard. Now Sheppard won't ever be as bad as Vaughan because North York, while sprawling, isn't Vaughan-bad. Still, it has needed subsidies since inception (what is it? $10M a year now?).

Hard to criticise the Sheppard subway for being unprofitable since it is so short. If it had been built as originally planned, who knows. So yeah, it is unprofitable, but then again so are all the streetcar lines.

I don't know how you can call North York or any part of Toronto sprawling, at least from the perspective of providing transit. This is part of the same area that has a bus route with 70 second frequency during the morning rush hour. Would you say that 70 second bus service a typical feature of a sprawling car-dependent suburb?

 

[nfitz]

That's kind of funny/sad because it's the DRL we need NOW, not Spadina or Yonge or any of Transit City.

What do we need the DRL for right now? The various capacity increases on the Yonge line should start coming on line in stages over the next decade, starting with the new trains next year. I'd think that the Eglinton subway piece of Transit City is more useful than the DRL.

 

[kEiThZ]

What do we need the DRL for right now? The various capacity increases on the Yonge line should start coming on line in stages over the next decade, starting with the new trains next year. I'd think that the Eglinton subway piece of Transit City is more useful than the DRL.

No way. Even with the capacity increases, Toronto has a few years at best before we are right back to where we are now.... especially with all those LRTs connecting to the Yonge line (which doesn't seem to have been taken into account by the planners). Ideally, the DRL should have been built before any east-west LRT intersecting Yonge. But if that can't be done, it should at least be as close to that as possible.

 

[nfitz]

It would be nice, and as time progresses essential; but I'm challenging the statement that we don't need Spadina or Yonge or any of Transit City; but we do need DRL. Yet without any of those others, the capacity increases in the next decade should double the capacity of the line.

 

[Dan416]

No we don't. We'd rather spend billions on new lines that make it faster to reach a backlog on the 2 lines going into downtown... Hopefully the decision makers will realize this negative outcome sooner rather than later.

Correction: not faster, more RELIABLE. The speed increase is marginal for TC lines. Now we can more RELIABLY get to Malvern and/or the Zoo.

 

[kEiThZ]

It would be nice, and as time progresses essential; but I'm challenging the statement that we don't need Spadina or Yonge or any of Transit City; but we do need DRL. Yet without any of those others, the capacity increases in the next decade should double the capacity of the line.

I don't think it doubles the capacity. But that is beside the point. You probably need at least half of the upcoming capacity increases to solve today's overcrowding. That does not leave a lot of room for growth. Keep in mind that we aren't starting from a decent baseline here.

And the capacity increases will have only limited impact on the situation at Yonge-Bloor. You'll be able to get on a train quicker. But the station dwell time at Yonge-Bloor could still hinder capacity growth on that line.

 

[Paleo]

It would be nice, and as time progresses essential; but I'm challenging the statement that we don't need Spadina or Yonge or any of Transit City; but we do need DRL. Yet without any of those others, the capacity increases in the next decade should double the capacity of the line.

If you cut headway from 141 seconds to 90 seconds--at $20 million per train--you would need $300 million to buy the extra trains needed, not including spares. You'd also run into the mentioned diminishing returns due to the effect of dwell times, especially at Bloor-Yonge and the peace of mind knowing that if anything goes wrong, the entire system is crippled until the problem is cleared. Failures would become even more spectacular.

 

[gweed123]

It would be nice, and as time progresses essential; but I'm challenging the statement that we don't need Spadina or Yonge or any of Transit City; but we do need DRL. Yet without any of those others, the capacity increases in the next decade should double the capacity of the line.

I've crunched the numbers. I'm including an excerpt from an article I wrote for the Ontario Planning Journal (although this excerpt is from an earlier draft of it, which did not make the final version, I had to condense it due to space constraints):

"Toronto’s rapid transit network servicing downtown is at or near capacity. In 2006 the Yonge Subway south of Bloor was near capacity (carrying an average of 28,000 peak hour passengers with a capacity of 30,800 peak hour passengers) (Toronto Transit Commission, 2009, p.5). In relation to the analogy, the water is barely able to flow freely from the funnel through the spout.

By 2031, the Yonge Subway south of Bloor is expected to carry an estimated 39,000 peak hour passengers (TTC estimate), or 42,000 (Metrolinx estimate) while having an increased capacity of 48,048 peak hour passengers, assuming that signal improvements are made, the new Toronto Rocket Cars are put into service, and an extra 7th car is added to all trains (Toronto Transit Commission (2), 2008, p.21-24). Even if all of these proposed measures for increasing capacity come into effect, the volume to capacity ratio will not be significantly changed, dropping from 90.9 percent in the present to 87.4 percent by 2031."

However, I am unsure if those estimates include the increased number of people who will be dumped onto the Yonge line as a result of E-W Transit City routes. I used the Metrolinx estimates for PHP for the percentage calculations.

EDIT: The final version is available on my website. I'd also like to add that I chose the title of the article before I did extensive research on the merits of various alignments, and I was simply going with the alignment that Metrolinx had proposed. I no longer endorse a Queen alignment for the DRL (although the article focuses mainly on the WHY we need the DRL, not WHERE we need the DRL).

 

[GraphicMatt]

The DRL is the only project that is likely to directly impact my day-to-day and I think it is immeasurably important that it gets built soon. Which is exactly why the anti-TC arguments worry me so much. There's a complete lack of pragmatism amongst some of these people which I think threatens to bring a renewed atmosphere in municipal governments where new transit projects just aren't worth the hassle to build and fund.

 

[Ansem]

The DRL is the only project that is likely to directly impact my day-to-day and I think it is immeasurably important that it gets built soon. Which is exactly why the anti-TC arguments worry me so much. There's a complete lack of pragmatism amongst some of these people which I think threatens to bring a renewed atmosphere in municipal governments where new transit projects just aren't worth the hassle to build and fund.

Anti-TC doesn't mean anti transit

-Some question that when you get both level of government being so generous in public transit in almost 30 years, you don't spend that on streetcars but on subway first...

At 300 millions/KM, you built the lines that you planned for decades to built
-DRL
-Sheppard
-Eglinton
Why? You don't know the next time they'll be that generous again or you might get government that won't care about transit or there might be a recession in the future. When TC overload our subway system, then what? we want subway when the cost will have reached ove 400M/km?

The right approach is too asked for LRT at 40M/KM later. You'll be asking for less money and it will easier for them to accept.

I would pick as LRT
-Steeles
-Finch
-Wilson/York Mills/Ellesmere
-Lawrence
-Waterfront
-Malvern
-Islington
-Jane
you built them gradually...


***
I was wondering if a 2020 Toronto bid wouldn't give Toronto the opportunity to complete their subway system...Government tend to give to the hosting city almost whatever they like and transportation is judge severely... Would any mayor keep TC in that context?

 

[junctionist]

The DRL is the only project that is likely to directly impact my day-to-day and I think it is immeasurably important that it gets built soon. Which is exactly why the anti-TC arguments worry me so much. There's a complete lack of pragmatism amongst some of these people which I think threatens to bring a renewed atmosphere in municipal governments where new transit projects just aren't worth the hassle to build and fund.

What will the billions of dollars spent on TC achieve anyway? Will they suddenly make TTC "the better way" in the suburbs? Will we be taking Eglinton to the airport? I'd rather just buy a car than rely on the government for travel in suburban Toronto if LRT is their strategy.

It's pragmatic to develop a grade separated rapid transit system incrementally, not drop billions so that you can build something all around the city at roughly the same time.

 

[Ansem]

My biggest problem is lack of RAPID transit.

Anyone arguing that a city like toronto having so few rapid Transit is ok is honestly...out of his mind.

If at least eglinton, sheppard ect. were going fast enough to be RAPID transit, but that's not the case is it...

When Toronto bid for 2020-2024 summer games, how are they going to sell the TC as a solution? The lack of RAPID transit will hurt the bid.