Finch West Line 6 LRT

[Rody365]

I get that the idea is to get clicks, but I wish people would actually inform people of the reasons for why things are the way they are. It’s not just this issue, but you see it a lot with transit people on social media.

Like streetcars are a perfectly viable form of transportation in other cities, but people see Toronto’s problems and think they are to blame for congestion. Light rail is also a perfectly valid form of transportation, but again people see Toronto’s problems and think it could never work. People see the deteriorating subway infrastructure, and come to the conclusion that the TTC needs to receive even less money. Stuff like this. It’s annoying and is why my social media feeds are just pretty pictures of buses, buildings, and plants. I don’t have the following to influence people’s opinions. I just share my thoughts with friends and family. At least there’s no competition to “win” and argument.

I guess this turned into a little bit of a rant. Sorry.

Hey! I’m the one more made that original graphic, totally understand your frustrations on clickbait and such. I’m very involved in the transit advocacy field and often do explain to people why things are why are—lack of transit signal priority, speed restrictions, lack of funding, lack of route management and overall a city that prioritizes cars of transit. I never blame congestion on the streetcars and always argue against ripping them out. They’re a great asset to the city and we have to keep pushing for them to be better! I find this kinda post sparks the discussion to lead people to my other content to contact their councillors about TSP and such, but it also does bring in the haters and disgruntled drivers.

 

[T3G]

I think there's a difference between lines that have a ton of slowzones due to decades of decay and poor maintenance versus a BRAND NEW "Rapid" Transit Line.

Also not the point. The point is, shitty operational practices don't discredit an entire mode of transport.

A tram that barely reaches 55km/h in a section of road with barely any intersections

Yes, exactly that. If the Finch line achieved speeds anywhere near that level, it would be several levels more impressive than the projected average speeds now.

ike its faster than the streetcars we have here in Toronto, but its not exactly performance that would justify a "Line 6" branding even if it was in Toronto. Certainly not something that should be called "Rapid Transit".

Rapid transit is relative. The Yonge line between Bloor and Eglinton West is hardly excessively speedy at the best of times, either, but we don't discredit it just because trains aren't running 80 km/h along those sections. Rapid Transit should be consistent (which an LRT with a private ROW should be) and reliable, it's not about building a pseudo HSR project along every street in the city.

The goal of building rapid transit should not be to compete with the car, because outside of rush hour such a thing is physically impossible, so any attempt to do so will just result in shittier transit. So, yes, I think that any line which manages to consisently go above 50 km/h is deserving of appearing on a rapid transit map. And there is nothing stopping Finch West from being just that, other than our own stupidity.

 

[Adjei]

A brand new so called rapid transit line being slower than the bus it replaces. This transit line will be the butt of jokes. The memes and tik tok videos will be endless.

 

[Steve X]

A brand new so called rapid transit line being slower than the bus it replaces. This transit line will be the butt of jokes. The memes and tik tok videos will be endless.

The definition "rapid transit" is kinda vague. If you googled it, the AI summarizes it as

Rapid transit is a high-capacity public transportation system in an urban area that runs on an exclusive right-of-way, separate from other traffic. This allows it to operate faster and more reliably than conventional transit, and it can take the form of subways, elevated trains, or dedicated bus lanes, often called Bus Rapid Transit (BRT).

Key characteristics

• Exclusive right-of-way: Rapid transit systems are separated from general traffic, whether by being underground, elevated, or in dedicated lanes. This prevents them from getting stuck in congestion.
• High capacity: These systems are designed to move large numbers of people quickly and efficiently.
• High-frequency service: Many systems operate frequently, often without needing strict timetables.
• Urban focus: Rapid transit is designed for use in metropolitan areas.

Examples of rapid transit systems

• Subways: These are rail systems that run underground.
• Elevated trains: Rail lines that run above street level, sometimes called "el trains".
• Bus Rapid Transit (BRT): A system using buses on dedicated lanes with features like signal priority and off-board fare collection to increase speed and efficiency.
• Light Rail Transit (LRT): A rail-based system that often uses exclusive rights-of-way, but is not always fully grade-separated.

Line 6 meets all of these points as rapid transit never really states a minimum speed. It just needs to have their own lane/tracks and operate frequently all day. So GO trains don't qualifies as rapid transit.

In fact TTC used to display the 509, 510, 512 and 501 along Queensway as streetcar rapid transit lines.

So the “536” would definitely qualifies.

 

[McGillicuddy]

At the risk of sounding like I've got an Obama-era hangover, faster transit is generally better than slower transit, but transit doesn't have to be faster to be better.

For one thing, regardless of the speed at which it operates, the LRT should offer more predictable and consistent service than the bus route it is replacing, which counts for a great deal in an environment as hostile to pedestrians as Finch Avenue.

 

[smallspy]

At the risk of sounding like I've got an Obama-era hangover, faster transit is generally better than slower transit, but transit doesn't have to be faster to be better.

For one thing, regardless of the speed at which it operates, the LRT should offer more predictable and consistent service than the bus route it is replacing, which counts for a great deal in an environment as hostile to pedestrians as Finch Street.

In this same vein.....

I took the Eglinton bus from Kennedy to Mount Pleasant yesterday afternoon. We got passed by at least 2 LRVs on the surface section of the trip, which took me about 52 minutes end-to-end.

Are there times when the bus will be faster than the LRT? Yes, of course. There are times and places when buses are faster than the subway, too.

Is the LRT going to be faster than the bus at the time when the most people are going to be using the line? Also yes.

It's the latter point I think that we should all be keying on, not the former.

Dan

 

[APTA-2048]

Hey! I’m the one more made that original graphic, totally understand your frustrations on clickbait and such. I’m very involved in the transit advocacy field and often do explain to people why things are why are—lack of transit signal priority, speed restrictions, lack of funding, lack of route management and overall a city that prioritizes cars of transit. I never blame congestion on the streetcars and always argue against ripping them out. They’re a great asset to the city and we have to keep pushing for them to be better! I find this kinda post sparks the discussion to lead people to my other content to contact their councillors about TSP and such, but it also does bring in the haters and disgruntled drivers.

I’m glad to hear about your dedication and work you put in. I can also appreciateI how the how and why can get pushed aside just by the nature of social media and I guess a bit of human behaviour. Thanks for advocating for transit.

 

[Monarch Butterfly]

For "safety", the TTC slows subway trains down to a crawl as they enter some stations. When the Yonge Subway opened, the trains,would come into the stations at full speed, not now. Instead of putting in platform doors, they directed the ATC or drivers to come crawl in, for "safety". Better way to "save money" than to "serve the public".

 

[robmausser]

For "safety", the TTC slows subway trains down to a crawl as they enter some stations. When the Yonge Subway opened, the trains,would come into the stations at full speed, not now. Instead of putting in platform doors, they directed the ATC or drivers to come crawl in, for "safety". Better way to "save money" than to "serve the public".

For "safety"

This is the most insideous problem with the TTC right now. Not the tech, not any other issues. This.

There is a ridiculous culture of over-the-top safety that is literally ruining the system.

One close call, and the entire system is forever and permanently put on training wheels.

In reality it has nothing to do with safety but rather government risk, and no one at the TTC having a spine.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

Apropos of nothing, we should be doing everything in our power to make sure Line 7 EELRT never sees the light of day. I'd even say scrap the WELRT at this point. Put the money that would go into those two projects into grade separated projects only.

The TTC and Transportation Services Toronto (reason we don't have signal priority) simply cannot be trusted to operate grade running rail infrastructure at first-world standards.

 

[yoshirocks702]

I just came back from a trip to Tokyo, and the way they run trains there is an eye opener. The JR trains running on multiple tracks in the middle of the city doing ~103km/h (via my phone’s gps) and whizzing by other trains on the track next to it is something I don't foresee us ever doing here, the trains there also fly into the stations but most have some type of platform doors.

Back in the spring when Metrolinx was still testing Finch, I was driving getting off the 400 and an LRV was flying down the tracks, Im guessing it was doing about 70-80km/h, it stopped at all the stations, I was driving slightly over the speed limit and I couldn't catch up to it. So they can definitely run this LRT much faster than what the TTC is planning.

 

[EnviroTO]

Yes, during testing before the TTC took over Finch West it was being tested at much higher speeds. I didn't expect that it would go over 60km/h, but I also didn't expect driving at a speed so no pedestrian or car, no matter how stupidly behaving they might be, could never be hit.

I notice they drive the Flexity streetcars slower than they used to drive the CLRVs too. The CLRVs seemed to hit a car every few months. I was on Harbourfront before the road shift and cars were stupidly cutting across in front of streetcars all the time. Back then I think there was some level of acceptance that dumb drivers exist but that it shouldn't hamper operations. Now if the longer LRVs hit something the news treats it like LRVs are a failed experiment, but the real failure is driving slow without light prioritization..

 

[Jonny5]

Yes, during testing before the TTC took over Finch West it was being tested at much higher speeds. I didn't expect that it would go over 60km/h, but I also didn't expect driving at a speed so no pedestrian or car, no matter how stupidly behaving they might be, could never be hit.

I notice they drive the Flexity streetcars slower than they used to drive the CLRVs too. The CLRVs seemed to hit a car every few months. I was on Harbourfront before the road shift and cars were stupidly cutting across in front of streetcars all the time. Back then I think there was some level of acceptance that dumb drivers exist but that it shouldn't hamper operations. Now if the longer LRVs hit something the news treats it like LRVs are a failed experiment, but the real failure is driving slow without light prioritization..

I recall back around 2010 I was at a party at a friends place next to Long Branch station. I left around midnight, and I took the 301 back downtown as the last eastbound GO train had already left, at least I think, or maybe I simply saw the streetcar in the loop and decided that was the best option.

I sat at the very back and that thing flew down Lake Shore so fast I thought once or twice the back section was going to derail as it was rocking back and forth where the road curved. Made it from Long Branch to Queen and Parliament in about 35 minutes.
Of course, most stops were not served until we got down to east of Dufferin when stops had people getting on that were heading home from a night out downtown, but it was amazing to see the actual speed capable down there on the Lake Shore to Roncesvalles section.

Speeds now are simply depressing to the point there's seriously much more of a time/money calculation that you do in your head at that time of night. Do I pay an extra $25 to get home 45 minutes faster? Probably a yes for me, especially when you are travelling with someone and split the bill.

 

[goodcitywhenfinished]

I just came back from a trip to Tokyo, and the way they run trains there is an eye opener. The JR trains running on multiple tracks in the middle of the city doing ~103km/h (via my phone’s gps) and whizzing by other trains on the track next to it is something I don't foresee us ever doing here, the trains there also fly into the stations but most have some type of platform doors.

Back in the spring when Metrolinx was still testing Finch, I was driving getting off the 400 and an LRV was flying down the tracks, Im guessing it was doing about 70-80km/h, it stopped at all the stations, I was driving slightly over the speed limit and I couldn't catch up to it. So they can definitely run this LRT much faster than what the TTC is planning.

I entirely suspect the TTC has applied the exact same operating standards from the streetcar system onto Line 6 and the grade sections of Line 5

I actually drove Finch from Finch West to hwy 400 last night and the one LRV I did see waited about 5 whole seconds after the transit signal turned green before moving forward.

Absolute insanity considering the time delay between the left turn advanced green and the transit signal green ALREADY ACCOUNTS FOR ANY CARS THAT MAY STILL BE IN THE INTERSECTION!!! God the TTC needs a reality check

 

[EnviroTO]

Yes, Lakeshore and 30th Street to Queen and Spadina (not putting in Parliament since that is beyond the Line 3 construction diversion) it is 1h 14min on the streetcar now. The fastest transit time is Lakeshore Line and Yonge line then walking from University back to Spadina in 56min with 25min of that being walking time because of streetcar speeds and infrequency. Car... 23min currently. Transit taking a little longer seems reasonable but 100% longer is a bad joke.