TTC: Electric and alternative fuel buses

[APTA-2048]

Nova Bus has been working on a new model the past couple of years. If you’re lucky, you can see it the back of the St-Eustache factory in camo. But I was told the project is on hold. Possibly a trial vehicle in 2027, but don’t quote me on that.

 

[Amare]

Nova Bus has been working on a new model the past couple of years. If you’re lucky, you can see it the back of the St-Eustache factory in camo. But I was told the project is on hold. Possibly a trial vehicle in 2027, but don’t quote me on that.

What a monumental day that would be, the day NovaBus decides to ever release a whole scale redesigned bus.

 

[smallspy]

That's not true of the folks in fleet engineering. We're seeing pullback in lots of places, partly because of manufacturing capacity to deliver, but also the funding.

What I wrote above is coming from the guys in Fleet Engineering.

Dan

 

[RapidTransit]

If the TTC had its way, they would still be buying diesel powered 40 foot buses and nothing else. No hybrids, no battery electrics, no articulateds. Nothing.

Dan

Not even articulated buses, just 40ft buses? That's interesting.

 

[nfitz]

Not even articulated buses, just 40ft buses? That's interesting.

That would be preferable, given the service degrade of the less frequent articulated vehicles.

 

[Steve X]

Not even articulated buses, just 40ft buses? That's interesting.

It would be so much simpler to manage if there’s only one type of buses. Scheduling and service planning will be simple.

 

[smallspy]

Not even articulated buses, just 40ft buses? That's interesting.

While they are more-or-less the same cost to operate, they cost a lot more to maintain, and their maintenance and storage can be problematic if the facility isn't designed for it.

While that last point was a far bigger issue 30 years ago when there were still a bunch of old streetcar barns that were being used as bus garages, it's not quite as much as one today as most of the divisions are now purpose-built to handle 40 foot buses as well as the articulated versions. But not all of them.

Dan

 

[Mind_the_gap]

Nova Bus has been working on a new model the past couple of years. If you’re lucky, you can see it the back of the St-Eustache factory in camo. But I was told the project is on hold. Possibly a trial vehicle in 2027, but don’t quote me on that.

Well aware of Nova's camo hybrid 8700...

But I agree with @BrenWilson's post that Nova should build Volvo designs, especially considering Solaris is profoundly entering the market with Vancouver's trolley order.

If Quebec proves to be too expensive like Sweden and Poland did, just use St-Eustache to fulfill the content requirement.

 

[RapidTransit]

Bus Reliability: TTC Reveals Uncapped Stats

 

[Northern Light]

Bus Reliability: TTC Reveals Uncapped Stats

The key here (I may deep dive later, but would encourage people to follow the link and read Steve Munro's excellent piece) ........

is that........the E-Buses are under performing miserably, and far worse than the diesels or hybrids.

I will note that I previously raised serious concerns about this focused on the cost per bus, and the cost of the charging infra in garages, where I stated that the current experiment needed
to be halted even if the buses were close to advertised targets (which I knew they were not) as the cost increase was not justified and unduly burdensome.

I'm pro E-Bus as a long term plan, but we need a supply of rolling stock that hits reasonable performance targets first, then a lower cost per bus, then a reasonable phase-in period.

We have none of that.

Any E-Bus not committed to in a binding contract should be cancelled immediately, along with any garage upgrades no longer required. Future bus orders should be hybrid until the performance and cost metrics for conversion work.

 

[RapidTransit]

The key here (I may deep dive later, but would encourage people to follow the link and read Steve Munro's excellent piece) ........

is that........the E-Buses are under performing miserably, and far worse than the diesels or hybrids.

I will note that I previously raised serious concerns about this focused on the cost per bus, and the cost of the charging infra in garages, where I stated that the current experiment needed
to be halted even if the buses were close to advertised targets (which I knew they were not) as the cost increase was not justified and unduly burdensome.

I'm pro E-Bus as a long term plan, but we need a supply of rolling stock that hits reasonable performance targets first, then a lower cost per bus, then a reasonable phase-in period.

We have none of that.

Any E-Bus not committed to in a binding contract should be cancelled immediately, along with any garage upgrades no longer required. Future bus orders should be hybrid until the performance and cost metrics for conversion work.

TTC has a report that they want to go back to hybrids. With minimal Ebuses as well, which didn't make sense. Starting in 2027.

Hopefully the NFI hybrids and not the uncomfortable Novas.

 

[Steve X]

TTC has a report that they want to go back to hybrids. With minimal Ebuses as well, which didn't make sense. Starting in 2027.

Hopefully the NFI hybrids and not the uncomfortable Novas.

Well Nova buses are compliant to the bid and would be selected if they meet the best of the requirements, lowest cost and delivery dates. The only hope is they are still backlogged and can't deliver the order. It's more likely we'll see the ebuses split between the two with the hybrids going to one of the two that can't delivery on time.

Technically ebuses should perform better mechanically as there are less parts than a conventional diesel bus with the power supply side giving the most problems. We'll see if the MDBF raises once they have sorted out all the teething issues with the new delivery. The terrible sides with these stats is we don't know if it's a systematic issues or specific to vendor and age. It could be the Nova/NFI hybrids are performing really well but the aging Orion Hybrids are driving down the stats. Also the sidelined Proterras don't help the ebus situation. The BYDs seem to be back on the road more regularly which leads me to think was it a dispatching preference in the past.

 

[T3G]

lmao

NFI recalls 680 buses over potential battery cell faults - Bus & Motorcoach News

NFI Group cites battery risks in recall of zero-emission buses affecting 680 vehicles; company works on permanent solution.

www.busandmotorcoachnews.com

WINNIPEG, Manitoba — NFI Group Inc. said its New Flyer and MCI subsidiaries have launched a recall of certain zero-emission buses after discovering a potential cell short circuit or other battery fault, a move the company says is necessary to protect riders and operators.

The recall, filed with the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and Transport Canada, covers about 680 buses already delivered and a small number of motor coaches. It is also expected to affect 37 vehicles still in production for delivery in 2025.

 

[APTA-2048]

From what I’ve heard, Karsan is working on a larger version with a door on the rear like the Orion II. Likely more flat floor space for more wheelchairs.

Karsans are manufactured in Turkey. But they have a Mississauga plant code in the VIN, so I’m not sure if Damera does any final assembly here.

Letenda, a new company from Quebec, has a 30 foot low floor bus with a completely flat floor like an Orion II. Designed and manufactured in Quebec. It’s a neat bus and I’ve attached some photos I took of it in Toronto. I think, however, at 30 feet, these were too long for what TTC wants for Wheel-Trans.

View attachment 631739View attachment 631740

Word is Letenda has been awarded the contract for the Metrolinx 9m electric bus TPI.

 

[APTA-2048]

All the Proterras have been put in the dead storage lot. A number of agencies have pulled theirs as parts have become nearly impossible to source. No idea what’s up with PhoenixEV, the company that purchased Proterra’s bus business.