TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Woo, there's a lot of arguments flying around here now, and some are rather abstract.
For me the keys are:
-We have long needed a regional transit plan and now we have one. TTC, obviously, first and foremost serves Toronto, but if they don't get on board with the REGIONAL plan, it will fail. If we accept that, we can start talking about the best way to fund these things etc.
-Metrolinx will unveil a plan for regional funding before either of these lines open so arguments about Toronto taxpayers are moot. Whether it's tolls or something else, everyone in the GTAH will be paying for this stuff.
In the meantime, Toronto is quite right to ask for money for Bloor-Yonge etc but the provincial subway money is not some blank cheque for them to say, "we veto the subway and will use the money for Transit City."
-As far as funding goes, there is a lot of hooey getting thrown around. Look at sunnyraytoronto's point about YR paying the least for Spadina when they benefit the most. The conclusion is debatable and abstract but there is also a spin on those numbers. They break down 1/3 province, 1/3 feds, 1/3 munis. Toronto and York Region negotiated the municipal share based primarily on how much tunneling/track each is getting - in short, Toronto is paying their 1/3 for the section up to Steeles and YR is paying THE ENTIRETY of the municipal share north of Steeles. TTC keeps 100% of the parking and farebox revenues. So who really benefits?
For Yonge, the munis are paying NOTHING for the capital costs.
-Statements about how the two extensions "go nowhere" or "no one will use them" are just plain ignorant - especially when you talk out of the other side of your mouth about how capacity will be overwhelmed.
Our subway system has long been anemic and not suited to population patterns. Taking it up to Major Mac may be crazy but taking it to Hwy. 7 is very sane - especially if you're already willing to take it up to Steeles.
Anyone who advocates taking both lines to Steeles but not into York Region is, IMHO, just being ridiculous. It's certainly not someone who spends any time at all near the city's northern border. Trust me: there's no wall there, no customs checkpoints...just a yellow line in the middle of the road like you see anywhere else.
-When you look at things like Presto you see how the whole region is working together - except for Toronto - and that cannot continue. The Yonge subway, is precisely the same kind of attitude; we'll deal with our stuff and THEN help everyone else. That makes sense but only to a point. The TTC needs to realize how important it is regionally and act accordingly.
-If you look at the map Anth posted you can see how random a location Finch Station is. It seems obvious to take the subway up to the transit/population node at Hwy. 7 though, clearly, you need to deal with capacity issues. That said, as others have noted, Toronto has not made a DRL a priority.
If the Yonge line does not get extended and the capacity does not get fixed, that's because more people are taking CARS into the city or choosing not to live/work in the GTA and that's hardly a solution either.
-Beyond the obvious pointlessness of stopping transit because of lines on a map, is the need to understand where people are coming from and going. Some people here keep talking about how the new subways will mostly benefit York Region as if 905ers are not taking TTC now. They are - in droves. The TTC does not only serve people starting and ending their trips in 416. Au contraire.
-People have rightly pointed out how much politics plays into this - and they should remember that it was politicians who invented Transit City out of thin air, never actually expecting something like Move2020 to fund any of it. They had no clue - it was a pipe dream. Accordingly, they should take a step back and work with Metrolinx to come up with something that works for the GTA at large.
I've rambled enough.
For me the keys are:
-We have long needed a regional transit plan and now we have one. TTC, obviously, first and foremost serves Toronto, but if they don't get on board with the REGIONAL plan, it will fail. If we accept that, we can start talking about the best way to fund these things etc.
-Metrolinx will unveil a plan for regional funding before either of these lines open so arguments about Toronto taxpayers are moot. Whether it's tolls or something else, everyone in the GTAH will be paying for this stuff.
In the meantime, Toronto is quite right to ask for money for Bloor-Yonge etc but the provincial subway money is not some blank cheque for them to say, "we veto the subway and will use the money for Transit City."
-As far as funding goes, there is a lot of hooey getting thrown around. Look at sunnyraytoronto's point about YR paying the least for Spadina when they benefit the most. The conclusion is debatable and abstract but there is also a spin on those numbers. They break down 1/3 province, 1/3 feds, 1/3 munis. Toronto and York Region negotiated the municipal share based primarily on how much tunneling/track each is getting - in short, Toronto is paying their 1/3 for the section up to Steeles and YR is paying THE ENTIRETY of the municipal share north of Steeles. TTC keeps 100% of the parking and farebox revenues. So who really benefits?
For Yonge, the munis are paying NOTHING for the capital costs.
-Statements about how the two extensions "go nowhere" or "no one will use them" are just plain ignorant - especially when you talk out of the other side of your mouth about how capacity will be overwhelmed.
Our subway system has long been anemic and not suited to population patterns. Taking it up to Major Mac may be crazy but taking it to Hwy. 7 is very sane - especially if you're already willing to take it up to Steeles.
Anyone who advocates taking both lines to Steeles but not into York Region is, IMHO, just being ridiculous. It's certainly not someone who spends any time at all near the city's northern border. Trust me: there's no wall there, no customs checkpoints...just a yellow line in the middle of the road like you see anywhere else.
-When you look at things like Presto you see how the whole region is working together - except for Toronto - and that cannot continue. The Yonge subway, is precisely the same kind of attitude; we'll deal with our stuff and THEN help everyone else. That makes sense but only to a point. The TTC needs to realize how important it is regionally and act accordingly.
-If you look at the map Anth posted you can see how random a location Finch Station is. It seems obvious to take the subway up to the transit/population node at Hwy. 7 though, clearly, you need to deal with capacity issues. That said, as others have noted, Toronto has not made a DRL a priority.
If the Yonge line does not get extended and the capacity does not get fixed, that's because more people are taking CARS into the city or choosing not to live/work in the GTA and that's hardly a solution either.
-Beyond the obvious pointlessness of stopping transit because of lines on a map, is the need to understand where people are coming from and going. Some people here keep talking about how the new subways will mostly benefit York Region as if 905ers are not taking TTC now. They are - in droves. The TTC does not only serve people starting and ending their trips in 416. Au contraire.
-People have rightly pointed out how much politics plays into this - and they should remember that it was politicians who invented Transit City out of thin air, never actually expecting something like Move2020 to fund any of it. They had no clue - it was a pipe dream. Accordingly, they should take a step back and work with Metrolinx to come up with something that works for the GTA at large.
I've rambled enough.
