ProjectEnd
Superstar
"Speed" isn't really something this sub knows. It's really crawling-pace all the way from Aldershot...
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GO Transit: Construction Projects (Metrolinx, various)
- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Sunnyside
Senior Member
I’m curious how fast that section can possibly become. Obviously it’s quite a curve from ~Bayview Jct to the CN yard, but even then things move pretty slow. Is the yard a limiting factor for the entire stretch? Or is it just geometry, track condition and conflict management?
crs1026
Superstar
If we are talking about the platform tracks ( Tracks 1 and 2) rather than the through (No 3 mainline and Oakville- Grimsby Connecting) tracks. The limiting factor for movement through the platforms would be the curvature of the turnouts at either end and their associated signal indications.
An eastward train not stopping at the platform, if lined out the east (Niagara) end, would have to be at 30 mph entering the platform (this is the zone speed from West Harbour to Bayview) and at turnout speed by the time it reached that new signal, likely 25 or 30 mph.
A westward train would enter the platform at turnout speed and would not be able to increase beyond that speed until the tail end of the train was clear of the turnout, and would by then be limited by the zone speed towards Bayview.
So to make a long story short…. 25 to 30 mph tops, and less if the train is stopping or faces a restrictive signal in or out of the platform.
PS - that signal location would certainly be problemmatic if something along the platform blocked the sightline of a train enterring the platform from the Bayview end, that’s likely why it is so close to the track. In that case the train would have to assume a red signal until the signal indication could be seen… and enter slower than otherwise required. Not ideal.
The other problem would be that the signal is so close to the limits of the platform that any minor overshoot of the platform when stopping would be a major rules violation unless the signal had a permissive indication. Again, not ideal. But not the only such place on the system where that occurrs.
PPS - One might ask why the zone speed is so low when the routing is fairly straight and clear. The answer is, the farthest a train could go from a dead stop at the West Harbour platform (mp 39.11 Oakville Sub) to the next fixed speed restriction is to the 25 mph crossovers at Bayview (mp 37.0).... not very far. So that quick sprintwould not save much time, and the quick start and then deceleration would mostly consume fuel. Again, not ideal, but it is what it is.
- Paul
An eastward train not stopping at the platform, if lined out the east (Niagara) end, would have to be at 30 mph entering the platform (this is the zone speed from West Harbour to Bayview) and at turnout speed by the time it reached that new signal, likely 25 or 30 mph.
A westward train would enter the platform at turnout speed and would not be able to increase beyond that speed until the tail end of the train was clear of the turnout, and would by then be limited by the zone speed towards Bayview.
So to make a long story short…. 25 to 30 mph tops, and less if the train is stopping or faces a restrictive signal in or out of the platform.
PS - that signal location would certainly be problemmatic if something along the platform blocked the sightline of a train enterring the platform from the Bayview end, that’s likely why it is so close to the track. In that case the train would have to assume a red signal until the signal indication could be seen… and enter slower than otherwise required. Not ideal.
The other problem would be that the signal is so close to the limits of the platform that any minor overshoot of the platform when stopping would be a major rules violation unless the signal had a permissive indication. Again, not ideal. But not the only such place on the system where that occurrs.
PPS - One might ask why the zone speed is so low when the routing is fairly straight and clear. The answer is, the farthest a train could go from a dead stop at the West Harbour platform (mp 39.11 Oakville Sub) to the next fixed speed restriction is to the 25 mph crossovers at Bayview (mp 37.0).... not very far. So that quick sprintwould not save much time, and the quick start and then deceleration would mostly consume fuel. Again, not ideal, but it is what it is.
- Paul
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Bojaxs
Senior Member
So to summarise your post, there's really nothing that can be done to help speed up the trains along the Bayview junction? Nothing outside of completely re-jigging the junction which, I'm assuming, would be a monumental feat of engineering.
It's a shame if this is the case. If we were able to redesign the Bayview junction combined with the tying in West Harbour station tracks to the CN mainline, it would help to better connect the Niagara region with the rest of the GTA. Perhaps even be able to run express commuter services between Hamilton-Toronto.
Looking at Google maps, why does it appear that Confederation GO is being constructed north of the CN mainline, where as West Harbour is south of the CN mainline? Wouldn't Metrolinx want both stations on the same side of the mainline in order to reduce conflicts with CN trains? Similar to how they setup the stations on the Milton line.
smallspy
Senior Member
While more signals would help, the biggest issue is with the lack of terrain allowing straight a significant amount of straight track.
This is in part seen by the fact that so many of the turnouts used in the Hamilton area all the way out to almost Bayview are of more limited sizes - #12s and #16s, which allow for 15mph and 30mph in the diverging direction, respectively. Even the switch south out of East Harbour is a #12 due to the space constraints of the platforms and the bridge carrying James St. N. over the tracks.
The other thing to consider is that while the curvature can affect train speed, having multiple curves in close succession without enough tangent track also negatively affects the trains ability to track properly, and so the railroads will limit speed to prevent accidents.
Then there's the whole issue with the set up of the line south through the industrial areas of Hamilton. There the issue isn't of curvature, but rather the sheer number of level crossings and the ease of being able to access the tracks from the surrounding neighbourhoods.
Now, could the speed limits be increased a bit? Sure - I think that improving the zone speed to 40mph is feasible, although I would love to chat with one of my friends in engineering to see just what that would entail.
But short of some very major earthworks to allow for broader curves and some major grade separation of the roads and rails, there really isn't much of a way to get any major speed improvements through there.
Dan
ownthesky
Active Member
Trains take the curve that parallels York Road/Dundurn before the CN yard much slower than the speed limits you cite, you can keep pace with them on a road bike. Is it possible that crews are just anticipating the terminus at West Harbour and don’t need to use anything faster to meet the schedule?
drum118
Superstar
smallspy
Senior Member
The zone speed through the area is 30mph. So long as the signals allow it, they can run at that speed.
If the train has a red signal approaching the plant at Stuart, just outside of West Harbour however that would cause them to run slower as they will be expecting to stop at the signal.
Once past that signal, they will be running slower as the signal system (currently) shows a red at the end of the platform and they need to stop before it.
Dan
Allandale25
Senior Member
This was posted in the GO Transit thread in the Global Transit and Infrastructure Discord server.
ShonTron
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That’s interesting. The N&NW spur gets its name from the Northern & Northwestern Railway, a short-lived entity that was the merger of the Northern Railway (from Toronto north to Barrie, Collingwood, and Orillia and into Muskoka) and the Hamilton and Northwestern Railway that ran from Port Dover through Hagersville, Hamilton, Milton, Georgetown, to Barrie and Collingwood.
The Grand Trunk swallowed that up, and later became part of CN.
ack
New Member
CN seems to really like painting itself into corners. Three main tracks west of the plant and two east of it, but only one through it?
crs1026
Superstar
It’s all the track cn needs, extra track costs money to maintain so they run as bare bones as they can. Has been this way for a long time, ever since the Grimsby Sub was converted to CTC. You can be sure if CN wanted more, they would have made ML pay for same.
The unusual part is the new 45mph switch (the green dot marked 3) it’s overkill unless ML intends to raise the zone speed east of the depot, maybe part of the. Confed extension. Even so, it only is useful on one routing because the T1-T2 switch (9, in orange) is only good for 25 mph.
- Paul
SaugeenJunction
Senior Member
Does anyone know if today's Niagara trains indeed used the new West Harbour tie in track? I assume that MX would want to eliminate that pesky reverse move ASAP. I also hope that weekend trains start stopping at West Harbour soon.
Allandale25
Senior Member
Sauga89
Active Member
This notice I found says there will be free taxi service on demand to any pedestrian who wants to get between two areas of Burlington while the Drury Lane pedestrian bridge is being replaced.
I've never heard of Metrolinx paying for taxis before.
I've never heard of Metrolinx paying for taxis before.