Toronto Eglinton Line 5 | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | Arcadis

[crs1026]

so if they order around the same time that they approve the future stations contract for eglinton west, then the trains might arrive in time for the extension to open

Pretty big “if”. Finding the money is the limiting factor. That requires proof that the cars are needed.

More like - they open, then demand becomes apparent, takes them two years to confirm the demand is really there, then and only then they start the proposal, and it takes a further year to obtain approvals and funding. Only then do they ink the order.

And all of that depends on the demand being there… and that cannot be assumed at this date.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

So count on 5 years to procure additional cars for Crosstown.

No. It took about 2 years to go from the Edmonton order for Flexitys in 2016 to the first delivery in 2018. And they managed to deliver 10 cars in 2018, despite having to complete the design for the 48-metre long car.

Besides, they'll have years, if not decades, to monitor Line 5 ridership to know if (or when) they'll need additional cars.

This completely a non-issue. I don't know why anyone is even thinking about it.

 

[TOtramz]

No. It took about 2 years to go from the Edmonton order for Flexitys in 2016 to the first delivery in 2018. And they managed to deliver 10 cars in 2018, despite having to complete the design for the 48-metre long car.

Besides, they'll have years, if not decades, to monitor Line 5 ridership to know if (or when) they'll need additional cars.

This completely a non-issue. I don't know why anyone is even thinking about it.

Even if we don't need any new cars due to demand, wouldn't we certainly need more cars to maintain the same headways when we open the new extension?

 

[drum118]

You're correct.

I'll have to check with the experts in that field, but I seem to remember that the maximum throughput of the signaling system and track layout at Mount Dennis allows for 25 trains / hour considering 300 foot long trains.

And while it would be problematic to operate the eastern end of the line at those frequencies, recall that at that headway the service pattern would have every second eastbound train turn back at Brentcliffe, not continue on the surface section of the line.


You're absolutely right, and this is part of the problem with Metrolinx's metrics which generally rely on the manufacturer's ratings, and not observed operational limits like the TTC's.

So those numbers end up being the absolute maximum capacities, not what is projected to be the maximum capacity of the line from an operational standpoint. Just like how the TTC aims for a something like a theoretical maximum operational capacity of 32,000 passengers / direction /hour on the YUS, even though running trains at those headways (and considering a 6 passengers / metre loading) would result in an absolute maximum of something closer to 43k.


The number of doors is the biggest single factor in affecting dwell time. Level boarding, regardless of the floor height, is a close second. Once people are clear of the doors they can move around within the vehicle while it is in motion, so the internal configuration of the vehicle is a far smaller factor in the grand scheme of things.

The biggest issue with the LRVs being used in Ottawa and Toronto is that they don't have enough doors.

Dan

All trams are the same when coming to number of doors worldwide. As for 6 riders/meter, what is this based on size wise since we are not all the same size?? Is this summer clothing weather or winter as it take up space as well some winter clothing is more bulky than others?? Are they carrying things? What about Strollers, walkers, bikes and luggage as well the accessible person?? That number is too high.

Is the floor spacing based on Japanese and Chinese been shoved onto vehicles as toothpick as the current floor spacing is very flaw today???

All 5-9 modules unites have the same size door. Have said that, there are a few systems that run 3-7 modules that are about the same lengths as they are using a larger radius with 1-2 of them being shorter with no doors I recall and 2 in the others. then there is Croydon UK trams that have 4 double doors and one single doors on both side of the cars with the driver section reduce to have a single and double door beside the driver for a 3 unite 32m car.

It's not a function of the low floor, you wouldn't be able to add more doors on to the high floor subway cars either.

The problem is that more doors weren't added during the design process, I.e. by extending the car body. Once the vehicle has been built you're screwed regardless of floor height.

Every subway train I been on that is old or new in my travels have 3-4 doors per car base on the length of the car. If you want to add more doors per car, how many seats will you see remove to allow more doors to be added to a car??? I guess riders will have to stand the full trip with no seat on board?? Been on a few subway trains where haft the seats on the end car behind the driver have been installed at all.

This is Croydon UK: London TfL 2546 (1998–1999) Bombardier CR4000 3 Section LRV with 5 doors per side at 30.1m with full driver cab and 100% low floor shot 2012

This is Croydon UK: London TfL 2553 (2012) Stadler Variobahn 5 Section LRV only a few months old with 4 doors per side at 32m with with 70% driver cab and 100% low floor even over the bogies shot 2012. It set the benchmark to be beaten in 2012 and still is today. Saw nothing in 2022 to beat it.

 

[Kyle Campbell]

This is Croydon UK: London TfL 2553 (2012) Stadler Variobahn 5 Section LRV only a few months old with 4 doors per side at 32m with with 70% driver cab and 100% low floor even over the bogies shot 2012. It set the benchmark to be beaten in 2012 and still is today. Saw nothing in 2022 to beat it.

I'm not surprised, considering how much nicer the Stadler FLIRTs are.

Unfortunately they weren't a bidder on any project here afaik.

 

[T3G]

In what specific areas is the Stadler Variobhan an improvement over the Flexity cars? Apart from the double stream front doors (of which a single one I doubt is sufficient to tip the scales in terms of offloading capability), it's the same as what we have, a 5 section, 31 m 100% low floor LRT with 4 doors. It's even got the same long distances between doors in the central section the Flexity has been criticized here for.

 

[smallspy]

The low floor design precludes adding more doors, for the same reason it causes choke points

It does not. There are lots of LRV designs in Europe that have more doors for the same length of equipment than what we traditionally use here. Buses too.

Dan

 

[Kyle Campbell]

It does not. There are lots of LRV designs in Europe that have more doors for the same length of equipment than what we traditionally use here. Buses too.

Dan

An additional back door on buses is common in Europe, and a good idea.

However, can you provide an example of such a tram? Most low floor trams I've been on in Europe are similar to what we have here, with usually 3-4 doors per vehicle for a standard 30ish meter length tram. The Citadis Sprit Metrolinx and OC Transpo uses has more doors per side (7) then the Citadis Dualis tram-trains in Nantes they are derived from (4)

 

[T3G]

3-4 is on the lower end.

Skoda 15 T, 6 double stream doors for passengers plus a service door for the driver:



Skoda 45 T, 2 single stream doors and 3 double stream doors:



Skoda 13 T, 2 single stream doors and 4 double stream doors:



Skoda 30 T, 5 doors:

 

[drum118]

I'm not surprised, considering how much nicer the Stadler FLIRTs are.

Unfortunately they weren't a bidder on any project here afaik.

Of course not when the tender is written for Ontario supplier and it was a known fact that the new fleet was to be built in Thunder Bay even before an RFQ was issue that only saw 3 names surface.

Saw Stadler Kiss train in a few place in Europe that were low floor and it impress me with them that I even had time to do a walk through before the train departed that would fit nicely in GO fleet back in 2012. Haven't ridden the FLINT and will do so in the coming months to comment on them as saw none on my Europe trips.

 

[TOtramz]

Assuming sign ups are finished (has it been 10 days?), how soon could the TTC start doing the simulated 1 month trial?

Would this have to wait till May because the operators need to finish 1 month of finch LRT training first?

 

[smallspy]

Assuming sign ups are finished (has it been 10 days?), how soon could the TTC start doing the simulated 1 month trial?

Would this have to wait till May because the operators need to finish 1 month of finch LRT training first?

The sign up is for the April board period, which starts March 30th.

No, they can't start sooner because all of those same operators signed other work to do until the 29th.

Dan

 

[TOtramz]

The sign up is for the April board period, which starts March 30th.

No, they can't start sooner because all of those same operators signed other work to do until the 29th.

Dan

Just to confirm that I am understanding this correctly, the operators are already signed up or soon to be signed up, and they will begin their new jobs on March 30th?

 

[nfitz]

Assuming sign ups are finished (has it been 10 days?), how soon could the TTC start doing the simulated 1 month trial?

Closer to 3 months - from end of March to Midsummers day.

 

[kaptrice]

All trams are the same when coming to number of doors worldwide. As for 6 riders/meter, what is this based on size wise since we are not all the same size?? Is this summer clothing weather or winter as it take up space as well some winter clothing is more bulky than others?? Are they carrying things? What about Strollers, walkers, bikes and luggage as well the accessible person?? That number is too high.

Is the floor spacing based on Japanese and Chinese been shoved onto vehicles as toothpick as the current floor spacing is very flaw today???

All 5-9 modules unites have the same size door. Have said that, there are a few systems that run 3-7 modules that are about the same lengths as they are using a larger radius with 1-2 of them being shorter with no doors I recall and 2 in the others. then there is Croydon UK trams that have 4 double doors and one single doors on both side of the cars with the driver section reduce to have a single and double door beside the driver for a 3 unite 32m car.


Every subway train I been on that is old or new in my travels have 3-4 doors per car base on the length of the car. If you want to add more doors per car, how many seats will you see remove to allow more doors to be added to a car??? I guess riders will have to stand the full trip with no seat on board?? Been on a few subway trains where haft the seats on the end car behind the driver have been installed at all.

This is Croydon UK: London TfL 2546 (1998–1999) Bombardier CR4000 3 Section LRV with 5 doors per side at 30.1m with full driver cab and 100% low floor shot 2012

6 persons per square metre is the maximum loading you can get before people start experiencing lots of discomfort. It corresponds to "200%" loading by Japanese standards, roughly, and is about 75% of the maximum allowable loading by Chinese standards. It should also be mentioned that Hong Kong metro trains, and the Class A Chinese trains that descend from them, are 5-door-per-side creatures. And yes, people stand for full trips; that's as true here in rush hour as it is elsewhere.