TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[Admiral Beez]

I think the problem is going to be at intersections, where streetcars use most of the roadway to make the turn. That's going to be a very expensive proposal, so I can see why the TTC would want to get a car that already works. But, this is something that can be looked at as a long term investment.

The best solution is to move streetcar service to the ROW and LRT model, and discontinue the routes where tight turns are needed, replacing them with buses if necessary.

 

[W. K. Lis]

The best solution is to move streetcar service to the ROW and LRT model, and discontinue the routes where tight turns are needed, replacing them with buses if necessary.

I have seen the standard length buses, as they turn, move into the opposite lanes or mount the curbs a lot of times. More often with the articulated buses, at one time.

 

[MisterF]

The best solution is to move streetcar service to the ROW and LRT model, and discontinue the routes where tight turns are needed, replacing them with buses if necessary.

Replacing mixed traffic streetcars with buses has proven to be a failure in cities all over the world. Buses are a downgrade from streetcars in almost every way; they just don't have the same capacity, ride quality, ease of loading, or durability. The capacity alone is needed now more than ever on the downtown streetcar lines.

 

[JasonParis]

Moreover, there's many people that simply "won't take the bus," but have little problem taking anything on rails (reliable or not).

 

[Hipster Duck]

Replacing mixed traffic streetcars with buses has proven to be a failure in cities all over the world.

MisterF, calling the replacement of streetcars with buses the world over a "failure" would be very hard to assert, considering that the majority of cities the world over dumped their streetcars for buses, or higher order rail transit, nearly fifty years ago and, in some cases, almost a hundred years ago. Don't forget, it's not just NA cities that abandoned trolley networks, practically every city outside of Central and Eastern Europe ripped up their tracks during this time.

Many of these cities, particularly in Western Europe, didn't dump their streetcars because of "GM conspiracies" or to acquiesce to private automobiles - it was simply more advantageous to run buses over streetcars because of the inherent deficiencies of running and maintaining street railways.

Buses are a downgrade from streetcars in almost every way; they just don't have the same capacity, ride quality, ease of loading, or durability. The capacity alone is needed now more than ever on the downtown streetcar lines.

I respectfully disagree. Streetcars are burdened by traffic and other obstacles and ride times are significantly compromised. They are also prone to bunching and a disabled or slower moving streetcar will permanently stall all streetcars that travel behind it.

One of the reasons why I think that LRT in other cities (especially American cities) is falsely lauded as such a smashing success is that those places run a streetcar every fifteen minutes, which is a frequency of service that will almost never cause bunching. In Toronto, where any surface line worth its salt runs with a frequency of every 5 minutes, having five nearly empty streetcars trail one jammed like a sardine car is a very common occurrence. You would be hard pressed to see something this dire on the Finch or Dufferin buses which have as high or higher ridership numbers than all the streetcar routes in the city.

 

[egotrippin]

With the new, much higher capacity streetcars we'll be getting, isn't the plan to lessen the frequency of the streetcars, while focusing on moving more people per vehicle? This would at least alleviate bunching problems. Coupled with the shift towards ROW for most streetcar lines, traffic would become a non-issue as well.

It is funny though, because this morning as I was waiting for an eastbound street car to head to work, at least seven passed by westbound in the ten minutes I was waiting for one going east.

 

[Hipster Duck]

With the new, much higher capacity streetcars we'll be getting, isn't the plan to lessen the frequency of the streetcars, while focusing on moving more people per vehicle? This would at least alleviate bunching problems.

I think that that's a terrible strategy that the TTC is taking and even Steve Munro acknowledges this. Really, the thing that makes the TTC a well-used system - perhaps the only thing the agency has going for it anymore - is that it has the best surface frequencies in North America. Sending a bigger streetcar every ten minutes will almost certainly be less favoruable than sending two streetcars every five.

Coupled with the shift towards ROW for most streetcar lines, traffic would become a non-issue as well.

Well, St. Clair is the last of the legacy routes that will see a ROW; it's unlikely that we'll ever see a ROW on King or Queen or Bathurst or Dundas - especially since those routes have just recently been reconstructed and aren't due for a fix-up for at least another 25 years.

It is funny though, because this morning as I was waiting for an eastbound street car to head to work, at least seven passed by westbound in the ten minutes I was waiting for one going east.

Ha ha. Well, that's part of the quintessential Toronto experience. Being a streetcar rider has certainly strengthened my belief in Murphy's Law.

 

[doady]

With the new, much higher capacity streetcars we'll be getting, isn't the plan to lessen the frequency of the streetcars, while focusing on moving more people per vehicle? This would at least alleviate bunching problems.

No, lower frequency by itself would actually make the bunching problems worse, since the time spent idle for people boarding increases.

 

[CDL.TO]

In Toronto, where any surface line worth its salt runs with a frequency of every 5 minutes, having five nearly empty streetcars trail one jammed like a sardine car is a very common occurrence. You would be hard pressed to see something this dire on the Finch or Dufferin buses which have as high or higher ridership numbers than all the streetcar routes in the city.

Every time I've ridden the Dufferin bus it's been like that. Wait for 15 mins at Bloor then have 5 buses show up at once. In the past Scarberiankhatru has cleverly described operation on Finch East as "pelotons" of buses traveling in packs down the street. Even on my bus route which consists of two buses during the daytime sometimes has those two buses driving down the road bumper-to-bumper.

I think that bunching on the streetcar lines has very, very little to do with the fact that they are streetcars. Other than when people block the tracks, why would running on rails inherently cause bunching? What's the cause? Instead it has to with operations... Steve Munro in his ongoing analysis of the existing streetcar routes is discovering that vehicles simply are not leaving the ends of the lines on a proper schedule.

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

In Toronto, where any surface line worth its salt runs with a frequency of every 5 minutes, having five nearly empty streetcars trail one jammed like a sardine car is a very common occurrence. You would be hard pressed to see something this dire on the Finch or Dufferin buses which have as high or higher ridership numbers than all the streetcar routes in the city.

Come on. Steeles West buses always run in herds during peak hours. First one or two are sardine-packed, next is reasonably filled, the following one is almost a personal limo. I am less familiar with Finch buses, but have seen a herd of 4 Finch W buses (am peak, running westbound). All 4 managed to cross Dufferin within the same green signal phase.

Buses are generally more reliable than mixed-traffic streetcars, but nothing can guarantee smooth headways when transit runs in mixed traffic on a clogged street.

 

[ShonTron]

I was driving along Queen East last Saturday and as two streetcars were approaching Neville Park loop, two had left a minute apart. The TTC just can't do line management, whether on the streetcar or on the bus. The subway, with strict signal systems, is the only part that's efficient.

 

[MisterF]

MisterF, calling the replacement of streetcars with buses the world over a "failure" would be very hard to assert, considering that the majority of cities the world over dumped their streetcars for buses, or higher order rail transit, nearly fifty years ago and, in some cases, almost a hundred years ago. Don't forget, it's not just NA cities that abandoned trolley networks, practically every city outside of Central and Eastern Europe ripped up their tracks during this time.

Many of these cities, particularly in Western Europe, didn't dump their streetcars because of "GM conspiracies" or to acquiesce to private automobiles - it was simply more advantageous to run buses over streetcars because of the inherent deficiencies of running and maintaining street railways.

If Toronto replaced the streetcar lines with subways (heavy rail or otherwise) then taking out the streetcar tracks would make more sense. Most European cities of Toronto's size or density have much more extensive subway systems in their cores. Toronto doesn't have that, and until it does streetcars are needed. Buses can't replace the downtown streetcar lines and maintain the same level of service and ridership.

I respectfully disagree. Streetcars are burdened by traffic and other obstacles and ride times are significantly compromised. They are also prone to bunching and a disabled or slower moving streetcar will permanently stall all streetcars that travel behind it.

One of the reasons why I think that LRT in other cities (especially American cities) is falsely lauded as such a smashing success is that those places run a streetcar every fifteen minutes, which is a frequency of service that will almost never cause bunching. In Toronto, where any surface line worth its salt runs with a frequency of every 5 minutes, having five nearly empty streetcars trail one jammed like a sardine car is a very common occurrence. You would be hard pressed to see something this dire on the Finch or Dufferin buses which have as high or higher ridership numbers than all the streetcar routes in the city.

A city like Prague manages a bigger mixed traffic streetcar system with short headways. The bunching problem isn't a limitation of the vehicles; buses are prone to that too.

Finch and Dufferin have high ridership not because of the vehicles, but because of the design of the street: high speed suburban multi-lane arterials. Ridership on King or College is constrained by slow speeds. A street with traffic going 20 km/h can carry half the ridership of a street moving at 40 km/h. Replacing the King car with buses would decrease ridership if anything.

Much of the delay is caused by slow loading, with people filing past the driver and paying. The new streetcars will have all-door loading so they should speed up even the mixed traffic lines. The loading will be faster than any bus.

 

[Hipster Duck]

CDL, I guess I've been lucky with the Dufferin bus. There is bunching, for sure, but at least observationally it's never quite as bad as it is with the streetcar. Yesterday afternoon, for example, I rode a 509 out of Exhibition to Union Station and, despite it being a Sunday on a relatively infrequent route, the thing was tailgating a moderately full car by the time it got to Rees St.

You and Sean are probably right about the inability of the TTC to stick to a schedule, which is why I find it more advantageous for the system to run buses. At least a bus can pull over and wait if it's ahead of schedule, or leapfrog other buses that are picking up passengers if it's running behind or too full.

 

[W. K. Lis]

MisterF, calling the replacement of streetcars with buses the world over a "failure" would be very hard to assert, considering that the majority of cities the world over dumped their streetcars for buses, or higher order rail transit, nearly fifty years ago and, in some cases, almost a hundred years ago. Don't forget, it's not just NA cities that abandoned trolley networks, practically every city outside of Central and Eastern Europe ripped up their tracks during this time.

It has been found since the 1950's, where cities switched routes from streetcars to buses due to the propaganda, they LOST ridership in every case. Only by extending the bus routes could they increase ridership. When buses are replaced by streetcars, ridership increases. See this link for more information.

 

[RedRocket191]

In addition, many developers have said (and the director of Mississauga Transit agrees) that rail-based transit sees bigger investment than bus-based transit. Developers view rail as a much more solid commitment from the city than buses, since buses can be easily re-routed.