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GO Transit: Service thread (including extensions)

Is there any indication that CN is interested in selling?
There actually is! I’m not able to pull it up right now but a previous VIA Annual Report stated that CN was open to selling this portion of the Guelph sub. Obviously GO seems to be the likely buyer now, not VIA.

Selling to GO would make a ton of sense. The route is lightly used by CN, and GO would likely invest in major track upgrades which would benefit CN. VIA installed CTC in the early 2010s, so that’s a major issue that’s already taken care of.
 
I honestly like the arrangement given where we are. It's not necessarily the ideal end-point, but given the state of the corridors as they are... All Via service going south while the marketing of that service emphasizes on Toronto - Brantford -London - points west while the NML is upgrade piecemeal and targets, well, all other traffic, seems like a good way of making meaningful improvements and having the political appearance of being HFR like.

Even long term, for how easy it is to say that the NML should be able to offer roughly equivalent travel times to Dundas, I see a lot of potential in a largely single track network that electrifies the NML for regional service and keeps the longer distance and express service on the southern route with upgrades on par with the pre-HFR lakeshore route.
NML?
 
CN & CP will have to decarbonize their network but there is no way, in hell, that they will do it thru catenary and/or battery. These are very heavy 100 train cars that have to be able to go thousands of km thru all types of terrain and weather and anything but hydrogen is a complete no-go. They both know this which is why CP is beginning to soon test hydrogen locomotives on very small distance as is the US and longer distances in Europe and Asia.

This will be useless to GO but perhaps not VIA. They too have to decarbonize their entire network and newsflash...........it doesn't just cover Windsor to Quebec City. In other words they will probably "piggy back" onto the CN/CP hydrogen network.
This is silly, onboard energy storage makes LESS sense with big trains, and while we are on the subject, you really ought to see what China and India have been up to in recent years . . . (I'd have shown the Wag 12 but . . .)
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What would be awesome is to have the Missing Link constructed and to have the whole line from London to Union electrified and operating at 15 minute headways. That would make for an amazing backbone for transit in Ontario. Of course that would require lots of work and lots of money, but it's certainly doable
 
I don't understand why via couldn't provide a super express type service to the ggh and surrounding areas (Peterborough, London, niagara (?) etc).

Spending 2 + hrs on Go's bilevels is not comfortable!
 
I wouldn't be surprised to see GO offer weekend service to London during the summer, similar to how Niagara and Barrie weekend summer service started a number of years ago. Stratford in particular could benefit from this type of weekend service, with a bit of help from BlogTO to promote day trips ("...only a short train ride from Toronto!" - BlogTO, probably).

Re: the prospect of VIA abandoning the north mainline, I really hope this won't be the case. Given the constraints on the CN mainline through Brantford, the northern alignment could provide much more flexibility to really enhance rail service to London, while also serving YYZ, Guelph, KW, and Stratford. Even with the corridor being upgraded to mainline standards, that's still 2+ hours on a GO Train, similar to today's travel time between KW and Toronto. Not the most comfortable of seats to sit in for that duration.
 
My concerns are that VIA would:

a) No longer service K-W, a major market, impacting the financials for this route.

b) No longer maintain access to the route w/the greatest potential for ridership growth

c) GO has little experience or expertise offering the type of service that I think is necessary for 2hr + journeys.

d) That CN cannot spare the type of capacity VIA should want and need on the Dundas Sub.

This is the antithesis of how Amtrak is growing in the U.S. where it becomes the State-level provider of service for longer journeys; which is where I think VIA should be headed.

It's a bit of a dilemma. ML has access to the funding right now, VIA doesn't. So if one puts the mandate with VIA, one will have to wait for Ottawa to get moving..which could take a decade given the focus on HFR. Whereas if one hands the mandate to GO, one gets quicker action (in ML's characteristic hurry-to-wait way) but possibly a less attractive product.

To my mind, the worst part of the test is the possibility that it would enshrine a change-in-London regime. The KW market is not just Toronto-bound. There is far more opportunity to leverage the Kitchener-Stratford route as the through line to Windsor and Detroit than to try to get CN to open its Brantford main line for more passenger service. (I was told that VIA does have contractual right to additions slots on the main line that aren't used at the moment, but only one or two).

I'm less worried about the equipment angle. ML has shown its willingness to modify equipment to suit the weekend cycling ridership. I'm sure they would be just as willing to dedicate specific equipment, and modify it, to recognize the longer-ride needs.

While it's quite possible that London GO trains would utilise GO trainsets that otherwise lay over in Kitchener, it doesn't seem likely they would send 12-car land barges on these runs. To my mind, getting the Halton sub expansion in place would open the door to a heavy duty RER service east of Mount Pleasant, and shorter faster trains with better amenities handling the longer distance runs.

The spin from both levels of government is that VIA and ML are exploring how to work together. I find that very encouraging. There's no reason that they couldn't operate an interleaved schedule (very similar to how the Amtrak San Diego line is a mixture of Amtrak through trains and locally funded service) that offers extended and short turn runs. By working together, VIA and ML might be able to leverage whatever capacity CN has given them more effectively.

The big issue is track. An investment in the capacity and speed of the line is required, or none of this will happen.

- Paul
 
I don't understand why via couldn't provide a super express type service to the ggh and surrounding areas (Peterborough, London, niagara (?) etc).

Spending 2 + hrs on Go's bilevels is not comfortable!

I did it yesterday and while I didn't mind it, a super express from Toronto to Niagara would be useful.

The train was slammed with 1200 people boarding at Union. Around 90% of those were likely going to Niagara Falls.

Having taken that train several times yearly, the trip could be shaved by an hour if it didn't stop 7 times between Union and Niagara Falls.
 
It's a bit of a dilemma. ML has access to the funding right now, VIA doesn't. So if one puts the mandate with VIA, one will have to wait for Ottawa to get moving..which could take a decade given the focus on HFR. Whereas if one hands the mandate to GO, one gets quicker action (in ML's characteristic hurry-to-wait way) but possibly a less attractive product.

I sort of agree, but with this caveat. I fail to understand they the province can't simply give VIA the funding to operate a route. This is common practice in the U.S. where Amtrak provides service on behalf of, at cost to multiple U.S. States.

I'm less worried about the equipment angle. ML has shown its willingness to modify equipment to suit the weekend cycling ridership. I'm sure they would be just as willing to dedicate specific equipment, and modify it, to recognize the longer-ride needs.

The modification of removing a few seats on one level of a bi-level car, and installing bike racks is laudable; I'm not sure it compares to what the changes I believe would be required of longer-haul services.
To my mind, longer haul trips need more leg room, wider aisles to allow for greater passenger movement.
Also though, when you get to over 2-hours having some ability to have some level of food/beverage service becomes important. Not necessarily meals, but pop/water/coffee/tea; perhaps a snack cart or something.
GO simply isn't get up for that, and I'm not even clearly that it could be (imagine having to get carts up/down stairs)
They also don't have any experience delivering this type of service.
IF they can get the travel time under 2 hours, I might entertain that the above isn't required; though I still think it might be preferred.

While it's quite possible that London GO trains would utilise GO trainsets that otherwise lay over in Kitchener, it doesn't seem likely they would send 12-car land barges on these runs. To my mind, getting the Halton sub expansion in place would open the door to a heavy duty RER service east of Mount Pleasant, and shorter faster trains with better amenities handling the longer distance runs.

Even VIA's current best times on the corridor aren't in a range where GO-Style on-board service and seating layouts make sense to me.
It would take considerable investment in the infra on the corridor to drive down travel times.
 
The modification of removing a few seats on one level of a bi-level car, and installing bike racks is laudable; I'm not sure it compares to what the changes I believe would be required of longer-haul services.

To my mind, longer haul trips need more leg room, wider aisles to allow for greater passenger movement.

Also though, when you get to over 2-hours having some ability to have some level of food/beverage service becomes important. Not necessarily meals, but pop/water/coffee/tea; perhaps a snack cart or something.

GO simply isn't get up for that, and I'm not even clearly that it could be (imagine having to get carts up/down stairs)

They also don't have any experience delivering this type of service.

IF they can get the travel time under 2 hours, I might entertain that the above isn't required; though I still think it might be preferred

It is 2.5 hours from Toronto to Niagara. Yesterday with delays it was closer to 3.

I would have killed for more leg room and a beverage cart.

Niagara would be a great test bed for long haul GO trains.
 
I did it yesterday and while I didn't mind it, a super express from Toronto to Niagara would be useful.

The train was slammed with 1200 people boarding at Union. Around 90% of those were likely going to Niagara Falls.

Having taken that train several times yearly, the trip could be shaved by an hour if it didn't stop 7 times between Union and Niagara Falls.

There is a need to service those intermediate stops; lots of people want to GO to Niagara but don't live within easy reach of downtown Toronto, and getting there would considerably lengthen their journey.

There is an argument for alternate service patterns, but that almost certainly means addition train trips.

Mind you, the weekend crowding on your train suggests the numbers are probably there to support that.

I could see an 8-stop pattern with alternate trains doing a different 4-stop pattern.
 
It is 2.5 hours from Toronto to Niagara. Yesterday with delays it was closer to 3.

I would have killed for more leg room and a beverage cart.

Niagara would be a great test bed for long haul GO trains.

Agreed, though, Toronto-Niagara is a much shorter run than Toronto-London.

One which could feasibly have a trip time closer to 90 minutes with track improvements on the Grimsby sub and an alternate stop pattern allowing for only 4 stops on any given run.

Toronto-London doesn't reach that short a travel window without HSR.
 
Spending 2 + hrs on Go's bilevels is not comfortable!

Did nearly 3 hours on a very slow Niagara train the other night and a similar trip length from London (on VIA) a couple weeks ago; I'd say they're about the same for me. The lighting in GO is a bit bright after dark (can't see out the window very well). They both had a plug and someone (I didn't know) sitting across from me; I actually prefer GOs rigid seats though I know many would not.

A 6-car go train would likely be more comfortable than 3-car VIA for me simply due to far fewer people per car.
 
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Agreed, though, Toronto-Niagara is a much shorter run than Toronto-London

This is why GO transit needs regional hubs not just Union Station.

Imagine the possibilities if there was a Northern Ontario hub (Thunder Bay, Schreiber, Marathon, Nipissing, etc) or an Eastern Ontario hub (Ottawa, Kingston, etc).

Not everything needs to come and go from Union. Long haul should be done by VIA with last mile connectivity done by GO.

The idea of a Northern Ontario hub is more about connecting rural communities out that way. Right now if you don't have a car you're f**ked in Northen Ontario. There are people however that live in places like Terrace Bay and go to school in Thunder Bay.

Local hubs serve their communities something long haul from Union cannot do without increasing travel times substantially.

I recall once taking a train in Hungary to Lake Balaton. You had the regular train from Budapest that stopped at every little shack along the way. I think the travel time was in the range of 6-8 hours to get to our destination. By car it was an hour drive to the lake.
 

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