Toronto West Don Lands: Blocks 17 & 26 | 141m | 43s | Aspen Ridge | Core Architects

[Northern Light]

I always wonder about the TCHC housing on the eastern side of downtown, directly north of the Gardiner and directly south of David Crombie park. It's a huge swath of land that to me appears to be prime for development/intensification - I would think it could easily fit a half dozen towers. It's certainly walking distance to the financial district, though it doesn't jive with the "little further out" hint and of course TCHC would have to sell the land or partner on the development, for which there's no indication of here.

That housing stock isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

The St. Lawrence neighbourhood is very well liked and runs pretty well in practice.

There are a few downtownTCHC blocks that will almost certainly be looked at in the future, but nothing to do w/the Tricon proposal; and nothing that I'm aware of in the very near term.

 

[daniel_kryz]

I'd generally agree. The roads are *way* too wide and, while a nice amenity, the linear park only serves to push things further apart. At the end of the day, it's a neighbourhood designed entirely by 'Urban Design Guidelines', and is the kind of thing in which we see should the inherent mistakes and avoid in the future.

Sorry for asking so late, but could you please explain what is wrong with Urban Design Guidelines, and creating new neighbourhoods with them?

 

[Allandale25]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1387396970772324356

 

[Northern Light]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1387396970772324356

For those who don't get the previews:

Link to associated video here:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1387384107097894915

 

[lomeri]

It's good to see that the province has backed down from a total demolition of The Foundry. But this site does have a lot of potential.

I would love to see something at the quality level of Block 20 (Dream/Kilmer + Henning Larsen) done here. Anyone know when we can expect updates from the province/city on the future of this site?

 

[Dr. Snoot]

It's good to see that the province has backed down from a total demolition of The Foundry. But this site does have a lot of potential.

I would love to see something at the quality level of Block 20 (Dream/Kilmer + Henning Larsen) done here. Anyone know when we can expect updates from the province/city on the future of this site?

Oh the province hasn't backed down at all; they are only following the interim court order that required them to protect the heritage buildings until the issue is finally resolved. The main hearing of the application was adjourned and my understanding is that the province still intends to demolish the buildings entirely. Until a legal settlement is reached by the parties or another proposal is made by the province that is accepable, these buildings are still direclty threatened.

 

[lomeri]

Oh the province hasn't backed down at all; they are only following the interim court order that required them to protect the heritage buildings until the issue is finally resolved. The main hearing of the application was adjourned and my understanding is that the province still intends to demolish the buildings entirely. Until a legal settlement is reached by the parties or another proposal is made by the province that is accepable, these buildings are still direclty threatened.

My understanding is that the province backed down from a challenge in court to work with the City? After causing a big hoopla in the neighborhood, it would be silly of the province to not work with their chosen developer/architect to incorporate the foundry buildings. This isn't really a case of neighborhood NIMBYism. There isn't much opposition to building homes here, just opposition to pointless destruction and lack of vision for the complex.

 

[Dr. Snoot]

My understanding is that the province backed down from a challenge in court to work with the City? After causing a big hoopla in the neighborhood, it would be silly of the province to not work with their chosen developer/architect to incorporate the foundry buildings. This isn't really a case of neighborhood NIMBYism. There isn't much opposition to building homes here, just opposition to pointless destruction and lack of vision for the complex.

The parties agreed to adjourn the matter, but my understanding is the Province has not changed its position on demolishing the buildings, to date. No settlement has been reached in several months, in any case, which is disappointing. It is possible that the Province is being stubborn because it already signed agreements with unnamed developers and faces financial penalties, or it is simply trying to maximize the amount of money it can extract from the site at all costs. And yes, I think there is widespread neighbourhood agreement to some development, including affordable housing, but in my view the 3-tower proposal (incl. a 45+ storey tower) is unrealistic and represents overdevelopment. You can see that the buildings would have to be shoehorned onto the site in an unnatural way. Considering that the strong majority of units in the proposal are market-rate, I think this is a profit-maximizing enterprise for the Province and that planning considerations were thrown out the window. In my ideal world, there would be 10-12 storey mid-rise building along Eastern Avenue, retaining the brick facade of the office building, and a 20-25 storey tower at the southeast corner, which is currently vacant, leaving the two best heritage buildings completely intact for community adaptation / reuse. That's just my two cents.

 

[lomeri]

The parties agreed to adjourn the matter, but my understanding is the Province has not changed its position on demolishing the buildings, to date. No settlement has been reached in several months, in any case, which is disappointing. It is possible that the Province is being stubborn because it already signed agreements with unnamed developers and faces financial penalties, or it is simply trying to maximize the amount of money it can extract from the site at all costs. And yes, I think there is widespread neighbourhood agreement to some development, including affordable housing, but in my view the 3-tower proposal (incl. a 45+ storey tower) is unrealistic and represents overdevelopment. You can see that the buildings would have to be shoehorned onto the site in an unnatural way. Considering that the strong majority of units in the proposal are market-rate, I think this is a profit-maximizing enterprise for the Province and that planning considerations were thrown out the window. In my ideal world, there would be 10-12 storey mid-rise building along Eastern Avenue, retaining the brick facade of the office building, and a 20-25 storey tower at the southeast corner, which is currently vacant, leaving the two best heritage buildings completely intact for community adaptation / reuse. That's just my two cents.

That's fair enough I suppose, I personally don't take much issue with the density proposed by the province (Even if it might hurt my view). I think there is some truth to the criticism that the WDL is underdeveloped relative to what it should be, especially with East Harbour and the Ontario Line Station also at Parliament/Front. Reducing density also reduces the number of affordable units that can be built. We're in a housing crisis after all.

I just want to see the foundry adapted to an interesting use/neighborhood culture node.

 

[Dr. Snoot]

On density.. Toronto packs all its growth into a few places. We know this. So let’s compare two new neighbourhoods.

The West Don Lands plan is for 6000 units on 80
acres. In South Etobicoke, 2150 Lake Shore plan is for 7446 units on 27.6 acres.

WDL will have one quarter the density. And vastly better transit, vastly better amenities, all walkable to King and Bay.

How does this make sense?

I've been meaning to reply to this for quite a while to correct what I think is obvious / purposeful misinformation.

According to Waterfront Toronto, the West Don Lands is 80 acres in size. This includes Corktown Common, one of the City's largest downtown parks, which is 18 acres, leaving 62 acres of arguably developable land. I will point out at the start that some land in the WDL was already developed, unlike the 2150 Lake Shore Site, which I will go through later.

Using the information taken from Urban Toronto on completed, U/C, and proposed developments, I have created the following list:

585 King Street East (TCHC, Block 21) - 243 Units
River City 1/2 (Block 22) - 598 Units
Canary Park Condominiums (Block 16) - 437 Units
Canary District Condos (Block 11) - 369 Units
George Brown College Residence (Block 14) - 257 Units
475 Front Street East (TCHC, Block 15) - 145 Units
River City 3 (Block 20) - 333 Units
Canary Block Condos (Block 16) - 187 Units
River City 4 (Harris Square, Block 19) - 154 Units
Canary Commons (U/C, Block 12) - 401 Units
Foundry Park (U/C, Block 8) - 756 Units
Canary House / Indigenous Hub (U/C, Block 10) - 440 Units
90 Mill Street (Approved, Blocks 3, 4, and 7) - 855 Units
125R Mill Street (Proposed, Block 20R) - 654 Units
55 Eastern Avenue (Cherry Place) (Proposed, Block 5) - 348 Units

Add it up, and you get 6,177 units. Assuming Block 13 is developed at similar density to the Canary Park Condominiums (although it is likely to be larger), it will add another 500-600 units, for a total of approximately 6,750 units.

This list does NOT include the following lands that are part of the West Don Lands:

Dominion Foundry Complex (Block 17) - 2.05 acres
Green Storage (Block P2) - 1.36 acres
Acura / Volvo Dealerships (Block P1) - 2.36 acres
TDSB Lands (Block 9) - 1.81 acres
Downtown Data Centre (Block 1) - 2.01 acres
Jeep / Ram Dealership (Blocks 2 and 6) - 2.03 acres
Eastern Avenue Overpass Parklette (Block 18) - 0.46 acres

This represents 12.1 acres of potentially developable land that is not currently available. It seems increasingly likely that some development will be added to the Dominion Foundry Complex, likely several hundred units.

So, in reality, we are talking about approximately 7,200 residential units on 49.9 acres of developable land, with a great likelihood that more units will be added in the future.

To me, this is quite a reasonable amount of density for the location and is far from underdeveloped. I will leave aside whether 2150 Lake Shore is even desirable or feasible as a development model across the entire downtown, but... it is not, IMHO.

 

[AlexBozikovic]

I've been meaning to reply to this for quite a while to correct what I think is obvious / purposeful misinformation.

According to Waterfront Toronto, the West Don Lands is 80 acres in size. This includes Corktown Common, one of the City's largest downtown parks, which is 18 acres, leaving 62 acres of arguably developable land. I will point out at the start that some land in the WDL was already developed, unlike the 2150 Lake Shore Site, which I will go through later.

Using the information taken from Urban Toronto on completed, U/C, and proposed developments, I have created the following list:

585 King Street East (TCHC, Block 21) - 243 Units
River City 1/2 (Block 22) - 598 Units
Canary Park Condominiums (Block 16) - 437 Units
Canary District Condos (Block 11) - 369 Units
George Brown College Residence (Block 14) - 257 Units
475 Front Street East (TCHC, Block 15) - 145 Units
River City 3 (Block 20) - 333 Units
Canary Block Condos (Block 16) - 187 Units
River City 4 (Harris Square, Block 19) - 154 Units
Canary Commons (U/C, Block 12) - 401 Units
Foundry Park (U/C, Block 8) - 756 Units
Canary House / Indigenous Hub (U/C, Block 10) - 440 Units
90 Mill Street (Approved, Blocks 3, 4, and 7) - 855 Units
125R Mill Street (Proposed, Block 20R) - 654 Units
55 Eastern Avenue (Cherry Place) (Proposed, Block 5) - 348 Units

Add it up, and you get 6,177 units. Assuming Block 13 is developed at similar density to the Canary Park Condominiums (although it is likely to be larger), it will add another 500-600 units, for a total of approximately 6,750 units.

This list does NOT include the following lands that are part of the West Don Lands:

Dominion Foundry Complex (Block 17) - 2.05 acres
Green Storage (Block P2) - 1.36 acres
Acura / Volvo Dealerships (Block P1) - 2.36 acres
TDSB Lands (Block 9) - 1.81 acres
Downtown Data Centre (Block 1) - 2.01 acres
Jeep / Ram Dealership (Blocks 2 and 6) - 2.03 acres
Eastern Avenue Overpass Parklette (Block 18) - 0.46 acres

This represents 12.1 acres of potentially developable land that is not currently available. It seems increasingly likely that some development will be added to the Dominion Foundry Complex, likely several hundred units.

So, in reality, we are talking about approximately 7,200 residential units on 49.9 acres of developable land, with a great likelihood that more units will be added in the future.

To me, this is quite a reasonable amount of density for the location and is far from underdeveloped. I will leave aside whether 2150 Lake Shore is even desirable or feasible as a development model across the entire downtown, but... it is not, IMHO.

This is very thorough. Thank you.

But to summarize: This neighbourhood in the middle of downtown Toronto is not one-third as dense as the TOD 20 km away. It is half as dense, once you leave out the large park that forms part of it.

 

[DSC]

This is very thorough. Thank you.

But to summarize: This neighbourhood in the middle of downtown Toronto is not one-third as dense as the TOD 20 km away. It is half as dense, once you leave out the large park that forms part of it.

You need to exclude a large part (maybe all) of the park from the 'buildable area" as it cannot be built on - it's really a flood protection landform. It should be counted (or, rather, ignored) as you would not count the river itself.

 

[lomeri]

I've been meaning to reply to this for quite a while to correct what I think is obvious / purposeful misinformation.

According to Waterfront Toronto, the West Don Lands is 80 acres in size. This includes Corktown Common, one of the City's largest downtown parks, which is 18 acres, leaving 62 acres of arguably developable land. I will point out at the start that some land in the WDL was already developed, unlike the 2150 Lake Shore Site, which I will go through later.

Using the information taken from Urban Toronto on completed, U/C, and proposed developments, I have created the following list:

585 King Street East (TCHC, Block 21) - 243 Units
River City 1/2 (Block 22) - 598 Units
Canary Park Condominiums (Block 16) - 437 Units
Canary District Condos (Block 11) - 369 Units
George Brown College Residence (Block 14) - 257 Units
475 Front Street East (TCHC, Block 15) - 145 Units
River City 3 (Block 20) - 333 Units
Canary Block Condos (Block 16) - 187 Units
River City 4 (Harris Square, Block 19) - 154 Units
Canary Commons (U/C, Block 12) - 401 Units
Foundry Park (U/C, Block 8) - 756 Units
Canary House / Indigenous Hub (U/C, Block 10) - 440 Units
90 Mill Street (Approved, Blocks 3, 4, and 7) - 855 Units
125R Mill Street (Proposed, Block 20R) - 654 Units
55 Eastern Avenue (Cherry Place) (Proposed, Block 5) - 348 Units

Add it up, and you get 6,177 units. Assuming Block 13 is developed at similar density to the Canary Park Condominiums (although it is likely to be larger), it will add another 500-600 units, for a total of approximately 6,750 units.

This list does NOT include the following lands that are part of the West Don Lands:

Dominion Foundry Complex (Block 17) - 2.05 acres
Green Storage (Block P2) - 1.36 acres
Acura / Volvo Dealerships (Block P1) - 2.36 acres
TDSB Lands (Block 9) - 1.81 acres
Downtown Data Centre (Block 1) - 2.01 acres
Jeep / Ram Dealership (Blocks 2 and 6) - 2.03 acres
Eastern Avenue Overpass Parklette (Block 18) - 0.46 acres

This represents 12.1 acres of potentially developable land that is not currently available. It seems increasingly likely that some development will be added to the Dominion Foundry Complex, likely several hundred units.

So, in reality, we are talking about approximately 7,200 residential units on 49.9 acres of developable land, with a great likelihood that more units will be added in the future.

To me, this is quite a reasonable amount of density for the location and is far from underdeveloped. I will leave aside whether 2150 Lake Shore is even desirable or feasible as a development model across the entire downtown, but... it is not, IMHO.

Youre right that there is a lot more to develop, especially as you move west along front after cherry. As you get closer to the financial district and the new Ontario line stop, hopefully we see some denser/taller developments. Honestly, anything to connect WDL nicely to the rest of the city.

One other thing in defense of the current form in the WDL. Nearly every other part of Toronto, heck, every other city in North America is Tall+Sprawl. We tend to build super tall when we’re allowed to build anything at all. That’s why we see 150m+towers surrounded by single family homes. Yonge & Eg, Mimico/Lake Shore, Square One, VMC etc etc.

The WDL breaks that pattern as a midrise neighborhood. Not just midrise along a major road surrounded by houses but actually all midrise in 2 dimensions. We know most of the worlds well-planned cities create density via midrise neighborhoods. I get why a lot of people in the neighborhood like that. I can’t think of another place in the GTA quite like it.

However, we are in a housing crisis. And this neighborhood will be central in the “New” Toronto. East Harbor directly to the east. The Port Lands directly south. The financial District to the west. A 20 min walk to two huge job an transit hubs. Access to parks via the don valley trail. In 10-15 years, will there be another neighborhood as well connected to Jobs, Transport, Culture, and Walkability as the WDL? I can’t think of one. Calls for density here aren’t unreasonable in that view.

 

[DSC]

Youre right that there is a lot more to develop, especially as you move west along front after cherry. As you get closer to the financial district and the new Ontario line stop, hopefully we see some denser/taller developments. Honestly, anything to connect WDL nicely to the rest of the city.

One other thing in defense of the current form in the WDL. Nearly every other part of Toronto, heck, every other city in North America is Tall+Sprawl. We tend to build super tall when we’re allowed to build anything at all. That’s why we see 150m+towers surrounded by single family homes. Yonge & Eg, Mimico/Lake Shore, Square One, VMC etc etc.

The WDL breaks that pattern as a midrise neighborhood. Not just midrise along a major road surrounded by houses but actually all midrise in 2 dimensions. We know most of the worlds well-planned cities create density via midrise neighborhoods. I get why a lot of people in the neighborhood like that. I can’t think of another place in the GTA quite like it.

However, we are in a housing crisis. And this neighborhood will be central in the “New” Toronto. East Harbor directly to the east. The Port Lands directly south. The financial District to the west. A 20 min walk to two huge job an transit hubs. Access to parks via the don valley trail. In 10-15 years, will there be another neighborhood as well connected to Jobs, Transport, Culture, and Walkability as the WDL? I can’t think of one. Calls for density here aren’t unreasonable in that view.

Like the adjacent St Lawrence area along The Esplanade, the WDL was planned as a neighbourhood - the problem with most areas of Toronto (and most other places) is that each development is designed in virtual isolation (ideally following a long-range but outline City plan) and you do not get the 'cohesion' found in both St Lawrence and the WDL.

 

[everydayhim]

Youre right that there is a lot more to develop, especially as you move west along front after cherry. As you get closer to the financial district and the new Ontario line stop, hopefully we see some denser/taller developments. Honestly, anything to connect WDL nicely to the rest of the city.

One other thing in defense of the current form in the WDL. Nearly every other part of Toronto, heck, every other city in North America is Tall+Sprawl. We tend to build super tall when we’re allowed to build anything at all. That’s why we see 150m+towers surrounded by single family homes. Yonge & Eg, Mimico/Lake Shore, Square One, VMC etc etc.

The WDL breaks that pattern as a midrise neighborhood. Not just midrise along a major road surrounded by houses but actually all midrise in 2 dimensions. We know most of the worlds well-planned cities create density via midrise neighborhoods. I get why a lot of people in the neighborhood like that. I can’t think of another place in the GTA quite like it.

However, we are in a housing crisis. And this neighborhood will be central in the “New” Toronto. East Harbor directly to the east. The Port Lands directly south. The financial District to the west. A 20 min walk to two huge job an transit hubs. Access to parks via the don valley trail. In 10-15 years, will there be another neighborhood as well connected to Jobs, Transport, Culture, and Walkability as the WDL? I can’t think of one. Calls for density here aren’t unreasonable in that view.

Though I do agree with you here on many points, and mid rise blocks can be such a successful model if done correctly, I think a large part of the issue with this neighbourhood is that the front st blvd seems far too widen for this level of density. I find mid-rise blocks to be more compelling when the streetscapes between them are design to be more human-scale and intimate. The FAR just seems off in that respect.

Front St could still be designed to be wider and more dedicated to public space, but you could easily remove 1/3 of its width and it would still feel great. Considering that approach and extra block area, all the blocks to the south of Front could be divided into two so that we wouldn't get these massive, linear building walls of homogenous treatment.