Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[JSF-1]

I mean where would you build them to? The only thing I can think of is maybe some dispersed routes such as a DMU service on Orangeville-Brampton, and maybe the Bolton Line? Obviously we still have the midtown corridors available to us, both the CP midtown corridor, and the CN Steeles Avenue corridor, but those would be very difficult to put passenger trains on.

Well this is part of the problem. the 2 corridors you listed (CN and CP) are probably never going to see GO service since they are essential to CN and CP. CP needs the mid-town line since that is there only way through Toronto so unless we build them a by-pass (don't think for a second CP will do it on their own) we can pretty much rule out mid-town GO service anytime soon (or at least a service that isn't severly crippled by CP's useage of the line). Now the steeles corridor does appear wide enough that GO could build its own line along it, and imo that is something worth looking at in the future. However ultimately we have run out of track to buy since all that is left is vital to CN and CP's operations so they aren't giving them up. That only leaves one option; if GO is to expand its service then it will have to be done through either new tracks and/or abandoned ROW's that still exist.

 

[Voltz]

Yeah I'll wager a toonie that within ten years we'll see a multi-billion dollar proposal from the Prov that looks at tunneling two GO tracks from east of Pape to Union, due to this throttling of the corridor. Bookmark this page.

I'm fairly certain that past GO expansion plans have called for six or more tracks through here, but now this shortsighted limiting of the corridor to four for the sake of ramming the Ontario Line though will come back to bite us.

 

[afransen]

This is why I have always thought the DRL should be a RER tunnel and not a subway.

Certainly build the DRL as planned with the same number of stations and frequency but use standard gauge with catenary. This way the system can be part of RER so electrfied RER trains can also use the tunnel. This allows for some 'relief' on Union station and fewer transfers for those not going right to the financial core. If RER is successful, trains could be arriving every 20 seconds in 20 years and that will put too much pressure on Union and a RER DRL tunnel would also allow for a back-up way into the city if for any reason there is n incident at Union.

By building standard gauge the system will also be vastly cheaper and easier to expand north of Eglinton as it can then make use of the already existing Richmond Hill GO corridor.

Do we know that Ontario line won't be standard gauge with catenary?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Do we know that Ontario line won't be standard gauge with catenary?

Because it will not be compatible with the existing Toronto subway, the Ontario Line will be standard gauge. They will not be able to use the Greenwood Yard.

Just like the Eglinton and Finch West LRT are standard gauge, and will not be compatible with the legacy streetcar lines.

 

[ARG1]

Do we know that Ontario line won't be standard gauge with catenary?

It will be standard gauge with catenary, but its extremely likely that the tunnels will be too small to handle GO EMUs, not to mention it will probably be electrified with 1500V DC compared to 25kV AC on GO RER.

 

[MrGoose]

Why not convert the Gardiner into rail lines?

 

[ARG1]

Why not convert the Gardiner into rail lines?

What are you going to do with a Gardiner Rail line? The Union Station corridor is literally right there and is nowhere near max capacity.

 

[UrbanFervour]

Why not convert the Gardiner into rail lines?

And at the same time, why not convert the CN tower into a air terminal for all the pigs that fly?

 

[north-of-anything]

Where exactly would the bottleneck on the tracks be? I guess around where the Ontario Line is, since there would be 3 services (Lakeshore East, Stouffville, VIA) on 4 tracks. One of these services would need to go underground at some point and come out the other side, most likely a GO line since it wouldn't make sense for VIA to not stop at Union.

I think they should dig out two tunnels - one route underneath King, the other under College; one used for GO and the other used for subway service. I also think that the Barrie and Stouffville corridors would be the best choices to go underneath King or College, along with any other future GO routes?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Midtown line is also a low-cost option in the medium-term future. It connects with the Stoufville line just south of Agincourt in the east and also can divert any of Milton/Kitchener/Barrie lines in the west.

CP and CN are going to charge us a King's ransom to use the Midtown corridor. I wouldn't be surprised if we end up having to tunnel the midtown corridor. With a limited number of stations, it should be relatively inexpensive, compared to most Toronto subway construction (the bulk of subway construction costs are due to the stations)

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I'm fairly certain that past GO expansion plans have called for six or more tracks through here, but now this shortsighted limiting of the corridor to four for the sake of ramming the Ontario Line though will come back to bite us.

I'm amazed that ML pushed the OL plan forward given their institutional emphasis on regional travel. I wonder how that ended up happening. It's telling that over the past three years, they've never addressed the concerns surrounding the impact of the OL on the capacity of RER

 

[afransen]

It will be standard gauge with catenary, but its extremely likely that the tunnels will be too small to handle GO EMUs, not to mention it will probably be electrified with 1500V DC compared to 25kV AC on GO RER.

Isn't a bigger problem that 40 TPH precludes any tunnel sharing with GO? 40 TPH has to be close to max.

 

[ARG1]

Isn't a bigger problem that 40 TPH precludes any tunnel sharing with GO? 40 TPH has to be close to max.

Obviously. I'm just pointing out the immediate infrastructure issues in terms of whether or not it would be physically feasible.

 

[sche]

I'm fairly certain that past GO expansion plans have called for six or more tracks through here, but now this shortsighted limiting of the corridor to four for the sake of ramming the Ontario Line though will come back to bite us.

I really don’t think this is such a big deal. Four tracks is still quite a lot of capacity, and it’s definitely possible to run a very good amount of service - see Berlin’s Stadtbahn for example, which deals with S-Bahn, regional trains, and intercity on four tracks. If modern signalling is installed, and the main limiting factor for frequency becomes train braking distance or dwell times (like with ATC or ETCS), 20-30 tph on each pair of tracks can be achieved, and that is much more than enough for LSE, Stouffville, and VIA.

Six tracks will probably be a good idea eventually, but that’s a long ways out and by that time Union would probably start having capacity problems too, in which case a downtown GO tunnel would probably be needed, and building the portal like 500m to 1.5 km further out is really not a big deal, basically just run the TBMs a bit further. Without stations a GO tunnel is cheaper than a metro tunnel. If the GO tunnel ends up being along Gerrard/College or Dundas, then even without OL the tunnel portal would more or less be at Pape anyways.

 

[TorontoBun]

I really don’t think this is such a big deal. Four tracks is still quite a lot of capacity, and it’s definitely possible to run a very good amount of service - see Berlin’s Stadtbahn for example, which deals with S-Bahn, regional trains, and intercity on four tracks. If modern signalling is installed, and the main limiting factor for frequency becomes train braking distance or dwell times (like with ATC or ETCS), 20-30 tph on each pair of tracks can be achieved, and that is much more than enough for LSE, Stouffville, and VIA.

Six tracks will probably be a good idea eventually, but that’s a long ways out and by that time Union would probably start having capacity problems too, in which case a downtown GO tunnel would probably be needed, and building the portal like 500m to 1.5 km further out is really not a big deal, basically just run the TBMs a bit further. Without stations a GO tunnel is cheaper than a metro tunnel. If the GO tunnel ends up being along Gerrard/College or Dundas, then even without OL the tunnel portal would more or less be at Pape anyways.

Going by the SSE debacle when we were just about to go head first on a one stop subway proposal, it is actually the tunnel and auxiliary infrastructure (an extra emergency exit, ventilation shaft and additional expropriation) that shoulders the majority of the costs and not the stations themselves.