Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[TossYourJacket]

Seriously. Choosing a low floor tram for a fully grade separated line would be idiotic.

Not to mention the issues Ottawa is having with that particular vehicle....

Also worth noting is Ottawa bought a vehicle that had never been used in this market before, which contributed to some of the weather related problems. Hopefully when we pick trains for this line, we look at what works and doesn't work in similar situations and climates. At the very least, Montreal will be running Alstom Metropolis trains pretty soon so we should know how those work in Canada, which might be useful.

 

[NoahB]

Is the cost apples to apples? Canada Line includes 30 year operating cost?

The 2B is only for capital costs for the Canada Line. I'm having trouble finding the maintenance contract cost.

According to the new Primary Design Business Case, the capital cost for the Ontario Line is $8.6B to $8.42B depending on the starting operation plan. (initial number of train cars)

This is lower than the $9,500 to $11,400 originally written in the Initial Business Case.

The maintenance cost now is estimated between $1.57B or $1.41B

Page iv - Ontario Line Preliminary Design Business Case November 2020 (metrolinx.com)

Interestingly, this would mean the Ontario Line could cost 2.36 billion less than the total project cost of the Crosstown, which is going to cost an estimated 12.58 billion. I don't think the Crosstown cost even includes TTC's operation costs. (please correct me if I'm wrong )

 

[syn]

Opening appears to be delayed til at least 2030, one year later than the previous Relief Line plans

https://twitter.com/x/status/1339602845662896128

This is completely unacceptable.

The line that needs to be the highest capacity is now seeing even greater capacity reductions. Going from 750 to 600 per train is a 20% reduction right off the bat. I have a hard time seeing them go to 100m trains on 100m platforms anytime soon.

Ford has fast tracked and buried a project politically advantageous to him while the most critical piece of infrastructure, needed for many decades, gets further delayed and trimmed.

The original plan already compromised capacity, now they're going even further.

We tossed a great plan for this.

 

[TossYourJacket]

This is completely unacceptable.

The line that needs to be the highest capacity is now seeing even greater capacity reductions. Going from 750 to 600 per train is a 20% reduction right off the bat. I have a hard time seeing them go to 100m trains on 100m platforms anytime soon.

Ford has fast tracked and buried a project politically advantageous to him while the most critical piece of infrastructure, needed for many decades, gets further delayed and trimmed.

The original plan already compromised capacity, now they're going even further.

We tossed a great plan for this.

Seriously. If Ford felt that the original plan was too small/unambitious (which, IMO it was), he could have told metrolinx to plan the western and thorncliffe park extensions of the Relief Line ASAP. Instead we threw out the whole thing for a vanity project, propped up on lies by the Premier about it being cheaper and faster. The only good thing about this plan is it fixes the absolutely terrible transfer stations the city designed for the RL.

 

[syn]

Seriously. If Ford felt that the original plan was too small/unambitious (which, IMO it was), he could have told metrolinx to plan the western and thorncliffe park extensions of the Relief Line ASAP. Instead we threw out the whole thing for a vanity project, propped up on lies by the Premier about it being cheaper and faster. The only good thing about this plan is it fixes the absolutely terrible transfer stations the city designed for the RL.

It was the first phase of a larger plan.

No reason he couldn't have proceeded and, as you mentioned, started planning the DRL North ASAP.

Honestly the DRL transfer stations were fine - and planned in conjunction with the community, as opposed to Ford's heavy handed approach that isn't moving any faster than it has in the past.

Wasn't Ford's bill to reduce citizen rights supposed to speed up transit construction??

 

[44 North]

It was the first phase of a larger plan.

RLSouth was barely the first phase, it had gotten to a point where RLS and RLN were virtually one project. And advertised as such by QP and Metrolinx.

This is one reason it's annoying seeing shills claim 'but this one is longer so it's better'. No, not really. Do the math and the previous plan was in fact longer. But on the bright side at least it's clear QP/Metrolinx operates in bad faith, something that was more speculative in the past.

 

[TossYourJacket]

Honestly the DRL transfer stations were fine - and planned in conjunction with the community, as opposed to Ford's heavy handed approach that isn't moving any faster than it has in the past.

I think most of them were fine, but Queen/Osgoode were a joke. Designed entirely to give as much access to City Hall as possible, without any thought to how well they worked for actually helping people transfer. Queen was especially absurd, given it didn't even overlap the existing station, just so it could have an entrance at NPS. That said, I'd take those bad station designs if it meant we got a better subway overall.

 

[syn]

I think most of them were fine, but Queen/Osgoode were a joke. Designed entirely to give as much access to City Hall as possible, without any thought to how well they worked for actually helping people transfer. Queen was especially absurd, given it didn't even overlap the existing station, just so it could have an entrance at NPS. That said, I'd take those bad station designs if it meant we got a better subway overall.

Sure...but they could've just adjusted the plan.

 

[TossYourJacket]

Sure...but they could've just adjusted the plan.

Yeah, that really would have been the ideal solution.

 

[afransen]

Next up, Toronto mandates all Subway sandwich stores must be located below grade.

Except in Leslieville.

 

[superelevation]

Sure they do, and they also have multiple lines going through the core - my question remain - did they model a northward extension of this route to some fairly logical termini, and what is the impact to projected ridership?

As to ECLRT - the platform length will *almost* always be - the trainset does not.

AoD

Not sure what you mean RE ECLRT

Looking at those Rolling Stock providers - I thought I'd provide some visual and international context of similar projects that Hitachi, Siemens and Alstom have done in recent years.

I think Honolulu's trains are probably more comparable given they more closely match the size of the proposed trains.

The OL is supposed to be catenary powered so that's pretty unlikely.

Basically any model can be made catenary powered.

I think I'm going to call it: we're not going to see 40 tph or 100m trains.

There's a lot of vague language on maybe moving to 100m trains or maybe increasing frequency, but nothing's stated the mechanism for doing so. Will the contract have costed provisions for this? Is this something the city can ask for? Will the cost have to be negotiated at that time, or is it set up front? No one knows.

Oh, and from the PDBC Full Report pg 125:

"Option Performance Comparison

The Financial Case assesses the overall financial impact of the Ontario Line and the two operating options considered in this PDBC. This analysis leads to the following finding: the refined operating concept option uses smaller 80 m trains that carry lower capital and operating and maintenance costs, which reduces the overall cost of the project (compared to the use of 100 m trains in the IBC operating concept option). Metrolinx may consider the use of 80 m trains for the first 30-year operating period, and into the second 30-year operating period to reduce overall financial impact of the project."

It's actually kinda laughable, because the difference in cost is....pretty low.

They say in the PDBC that the capability will be there they just won't use it out of the gate which is fine, 34 tph and 80 meters will be fine initially, if the line is overcrowded they'll use them sooner.

 

[superelevation]

For all it's value engineering flaws, the fact that the Canada Line cost just two billion dollars is simply astonishing compared to how expensive the Ontario Line is projected to be.

The Canada Line does not really have "engineering flaws". The line is safe and effectively moved around 150,000 people per day pre pandemic. With its ultimate capacity still being around twice what it was pre pandemic (more frequency and slightly longer trains can be used) we could easily see the line moving 300,000+ people per day eventually which is reallllly not a small number. Line 2 carries ~500,000 people per day.

What you are referring to are more flaws in the planning of the line, suburban mayors were relentless in saying the line would be a total failure which lead to the build out capacity being lowered.

At the end of the day the line was a P3, so the bidders met the spec and did it as efficiently as possible!

I think we have a weird obsession in Toronto with big trains being somehow better (6 car subway trains, 12 car bi level GO trains). The truth is most people don't seem to recognize that if you have a metro line with an initially planned 4 minute frequency you could build in platforms to fit twice the train (pricey), or just engineer the line to handle much higher frequencies (much cheaper) - going from 4 minutes to 2 minutes *doubles* your capacity.

 

[superelevation]

This is completely unacceptable.

The line that needs to be the highest capacity is now seeing even greater capacity reductions. Going from 750 to 600 per train is a 20% reduction right off the bat. I have a hard time seeing them go to 100m trains on 100m platforms anytime soon.

Ford has fast tracked and buried a project politically advantageous to him while the most critical piece of infrastructure, needed for many decades, gets further delayed and trimmed.

The original plan already compromised capacity, now they're going even further.

We tossed a great plan for this.

Irrespective of my disagreement RE capacity, I want to question this "great" plan.

The old plan lacked:

- Phase one build West of Osgoode and North of Bloor serving super fast growing Downtown Communities, and lower income transit starved Northern Communities
- Cross platform transfers to GO which are clearly better than the deep Downsview Park style transfers we would have had
- Elevated rail used extensively (which will likely change the perception of elevated rail in Toronto - potentially significantly reducing costs for future suburban lines - because yes obviously on those wide suburban roads elevated makes way more sense)
- A modern train platform - the Toronto Subway trains are fine, but newer trains with higher power requirements (hence catenary) can climb steeper slopes and hit higher speeds
- Very strong incentive for the province to finally force regional agencies to the table to integrate fares (needed for cross platform transfers)
- Automation and Platform Screen doors as a given (they were also "planned" for the TYSSE, who knows if their fate would have been the same for DRL)

 

[JSF-1]

Irrespective of my disagreement RE capacity, I want to question this "great" plan.

The old plan lacked:

- Phase one build West of Osgoode and North of Bloor serving super fast growing Downtown Communities, and lower income transit starved Northern Communities
- Cross platform transfers to GO which are clearly better than the deep Downsview Park style transfers we would have had
- Elevated rail used extensively (which will likely change the perception of elevated rail in Toronto - potentially significantly reducing costs for future suburban lines - because yes obviously on those wide suburban roads elevated makes way more sense)
- A modern train platform - the Toronto Subway trains are fine, but newer trains with higher power requirements (hence catenary) can climb steeper slopes and hit higher speeds
- Very strong incentive for the province to finally force regional agencies to the table to integrate fares (needed for cross platform transfers)
- Automation and Platform Screen doors as a given (they were also "planned" for the TYSSE, who knows if their fate would have been the same for DRL)

Yea I'll believe that when I see it. PSD's are always one of the first things to get canned as a "Cost cutting measure" and it seems every time we build something the penny pinchers come out of the woodwork. Given the current financial situation of the province moving forward I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Conservatives begin looking for ways to "save money" on these types of projects. As well Vancouver shows you don't need PSD's for fully automated lines, so the precedent is there. I would like PSD's on all the subway lines but it never happens because nobody wants to spend any money on anything more then the bare essentials.

 

[M II A II R II K]

So at Exhibition the new line will share the same platform like the UP at Bloor.