Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[kali]

^yes I know all that. The point is that many of these extensions make no sense when there are much more pressing needs in the system. I say that as someone who supports a 3 stop elevated SSE and YNSE, but those are the only suburban extensions needed at this point. The entitlement with which some members (well maybe only one) post here about how Scarborough is owed a line 4 extension boils my blood. Who died and gave you carte blance with the chequebook?

If Scarborough needs to get downtown quickly, they'll have GO RER/Expansion on the Stouffville and LSE lines. Missisauga has LSW. Milton is the odd one out, but that doesn't justify extending line 2.

 

[syn]

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate.

Yonge wasn't all that dense north of Bloor when the subway went in.

Many/Most of the massive rental blocks associated with St. Clair, Davisville and Eglinton followed the subway.

Much of the Line 2 route was low density and indeed still appears to be so.

If you follow Danforth east the only obviously high density pocket is at Main Street Station/Victoria Park Station, both of which were build concurrent to the subway.

Though, in the case of Line 2, a fairly high density pocket along Cosburn from Broadview to Donlands began to emerge pre-subway and was finished concurrently with same.

On the western side, the largest density appears at Dundas West, and then High Park; with both of those hi-rise sections built concurrently with or just after the subway opened.

All of which is to say, certainly some level of density is desirable; a subway to a corn field is not!

However, a reasonable assurance of density built with or immediately after a subway is not inherently poor planning.

*****

Of note, notwithstanding the relatively low density on much of Bloor West and Danforth; Line 2 is not all that far off capacity at peak times.

This is because feeder routes bring people from fairly large distances into the subway; and that too must be considered when planning.

None of which is to re-litigate any issues in this thread; merely to offer that things aren't as easily determined as one or even two simple metrics.

You're right about density. However, when the Yonge Subway was built, streetcar service was essentially at capacity. A subway was the next logical step.

Yonge may not have been as dense north of Bloor, but it's a major commercial thoroughfare with a direct link downtown.

The same can't be said for subway expansion locations over the past 50 years.

Feeder routes are needed in suburban areas because they don't have the density to justify higher order transit. I'm all for investing in these areas, but in a manner that makes sense.

If we stuck to the strategy that saw the Yonge Line built, the DRL would've been up and running decades ago and we wouldn't be in our current predicament.

 

[Streety McCarface]

The same can't be said for subway expansion locations over the past 50 years.

Perhaps it can't, but I'm sure glad we built the subway out in the following locations (all within the last 50 years):

The Yonge Subway north of Eglinton — 300K PPD
The Spadina Subway (to Sheppard West) — 200K PPD
Kipling station — 50K PPD
Kennedy Station and the SRT — 80K PPD
Line 4 — 50K PPD
The TYSSE — 90K PPD

With all the ridership these corridors generated (770K PPD, about 60% of the ridership of the subway today — more than the total ridership of the Chicago L and the Washington Metro), transit remained competitive throughout this city.

Perhaps density isn't the only factor.

 

[sixrings]

Perhaps it can't, but I'm sure glad we built the subway out in the following locations (all within the last 50 years):

The Yonge Subway north of Eglinton — 300K PPD
The Spadina Subway (to Sheppard West) — 200K PPD
Kipling station — 50K PPD
Kennedy Station and the SRT — 80K PPD
Line 4 — 50K PPD
The TYSSE — 90K PPD

With all the ridership these corridors generated (770K PPD, about 60% of the ridership of the subway today — more than the total ridership of the Chicago L and the Washington Metro), transit remained competitive throughout this city.

Perhaps density isn't the only factor.

Perhaps we would have just lived in a denser city then in two car garage Scarborough, North York, and etobicoke.

 

[syn]

Perhaps it can't, but I'm sure glad we built the subway out in the following locations (all within the last 50 years):

The Yonge Subway north of Eglinton — 300K PPD
The Spadina Subway (to Sheppard West) — 200K PPD
Kipling station — 50K PPD
Kennedy Station and the SRT — 80K PPD
Line 4 — 50K PPD
The TYSSE — 90K PPD

With all the ridership these corridors generated (770K PPD, about 60% of the ridership of the subway today — more than the total ridership of the Chicago L and the Washington Metro), transit remained competitive throughout this city.

Perhaps density isn't the only factor.

I'm glad those exist, but that doesn't change the fact the system is struggling.

I'd love to see subways everywhere, but it's pretty clear the subway building strategy of the past 50 years has been very shortsighted and ineffective.

That's why we are where we are now.

 

[Streety McCarface]

I'm glad those exist, but that doesn't change the fact the system is struggling.

I'd love to see subways everywhere, but it's pretty clear the subway building strategy of the past 50 years has been very shortsighted and ineffective.

That's why we are where we are now.

Or it's been very effective and we're now seeing the results of our investments.

 

[syn]

Or it's been very effective and we're now seeing the results of our investments.

The result is an overburdened system with a main line bursting at the seams, and a planning approach increasingly dominated by political concerns.

That we're not learning from our mistakes is quite sad.

 

[11th]

I'm glad those exist, but that doesn't change the fact the system is struggling.

I'd love to see subways everywhere, but it's pretty clear the subway building strategy of the past 50 years has been very shortsighted and ineffective.

That's why we are where we are now.

A lot of the plans were not shortsighted, it's just we kept changing our priorities and rewriting plans. Remember relief line was once not wanted in downtown (by some councilors).

 

[robmausser]

A lot of the plans were not shortsighted, it's just we kept changing our priorities and rewriting plans. Remember relief line was once not wanted in downtown (by some councilors).

One of them was Jack Layton, an NDPer.

They wanted downtown to stay a quiet hamlet like its some kind of park or something, and were for the Sheppard Subway and moving new commerce and industry up north to north york.

 

[syn]

A lot of the plans were not shortsighted, it's just we kept changing our priorities and rewriting plans. Remember relief line was once not wanted in downtown (by some councilors).

I agree - but the plans don't mean anything if we never go through with them.

Our good plans are always replaced by new politically driven plans...or nothing.

 

[OneCity]

I assumed some here laugh at the idea of further 905 Centres being connected to the subway in the future

Not shocking in a forum when so many ridiculued and said the SSE would never be built.

Toronto politicians cant F with 905 Cities like they did w/ Scarborough. The Province is and will continue to plan extensions put to the Centres

Relief and growth will happen together, not in the most optimal order at tines but the subway extensions will only continue to gain steam as the GTA grows

 

[kali]

^lol

 

[Bojaxs]

I assumed some here laugh at the idea of further 905 Centres being connected to the subway in the future

Not shocking in a forum when so many ridiculued and said the SSE would never be built.

Toronto politicians cant F with 905 Cities like they did w/ Scarborough. The Province is and will continue to plan extensions put to the Centres

Relief and growth will happen together, not in the most optimal order at tines but the subway extensions will only continue to gain steam as the GTA grows

How far can the subway realistically stretch before it essentially becomes a tunneled version of the GO train?

If we're going to have a subway connecting DT Mississauga with DT Toronto. Than perhaps we should be doing something similar as London, U.K. is doing with the Elizabeth Line.

 

[ARG1]

How far can the subway realistically stretch before it essentially becomes a tunneled version of the GO train?

If we're going to have a subway connecting DT Mississauga with DT Toronto. Than perhaps we should be doing something similar as London, U.K. is doing with the Elizabeth Line.

Subways and GO Transit aren't comparable. If they were, then we'd have a larger problem with the Eglinton West LRT being redundant due the UP Express. As we can see though this isn't the case. This is mainly because GO Transit basically serves as an express route to the Subway's local routes, whereas GO Transit allows for quick commutes between 2 major destinations, the Subway fills in the gaps and allows access to all of the communities in between. This is why despite the fact that we're building GO RER, none of our existing subways are somehow turning pointlessly redundant. Even though we're going to have an EMU subway like train going from Kennedy to Union much faster than Line 2 + Line 1 ever could every couple of minutes, Line 2 will still be important to service those local stops. Same thing if we say extend Line 4 to Pickering, the LSE station will be there for people trying to reach places like downtown Toronto, but Line 4 would take them to smaller centers like Scarborough, Toronto Zoo (theoretically), malvern, North York, etc.

 

[OneCity]

How far can the subway realistically stretch before it essentially becomes a tunneled version of the GO train?

If we're going to have a subway connecting DT Mississauga with DT Toronto. Than perhaps we should be doing something similar as London, U.K. is doing with the Elizabeth Line.

The subways will stretch out to all major Centres surrounding Toronto just as it is already started, and currently being designed and built. It is really nothing comparable to GO which acts mainly as a funnel from non-central Southern Ontario locations into Union station.

This GTA subway backbone is well underway with North York, Vaughan, Scarborough, soon to be Richmond Hill. Mississauga (Etobicoke West) has been lobbying (simple google search) and waiting to get in the que. The Sheppard subway will be built and will be set up the link for Pickering there just as LIne 2 will already have set up the link for Markham in the future. It would have been a bit further along if amalgamated Toronto didn't try to pull the stunt it did with Scarborough Centre. Keep in mind that type of corner cutting planning will never happen in other Cities or even at the Province, there will not even be a debate.

While I certainly disagree, I do hear the reasons why some dont like the idea of connecting suburban Centre growth nodes to the subways as a backbone. Its really like some here live in an alternate world to the degree they'll mock those pointing out the obvious reality of what is actually being built and what is being seriously discussed outside of DT Toronto in other GTA Cities