sixrings
Senior Member
That would be correct. Just like a LRT is good enough for finch.
Toronto Eglinton Line 5 Crosstown West Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
- Thread starter W. K. Lis
- Start date
crs1026
Senior Member
^In the supporting documents to that Council decision, there is a statement that Build Toronto acknowledges the intent to build a transit line in the corridor, and will take steps to maintain such access as is needed for station entrances, emergency shafts, etc. In other words.... all the easements and accesses needed for an underground line.
The sale of lands coincided roughly with McGuinty’s decision to cut back the LRT to Mount Dennis. One wonders if somebody saw the opportunity to ensure that any eventual extension would go underground, by narrowing the roadway allotment and putting the underground premise into the land deal.
That corridor had been carefully preserved for close to forty years before Council sold those lands. That has to be one of the biggest sellouts this city has ever seen.
- Paul
The sale of lands coincided roughly with McGuinty’s decision to cut back the LRT to Mount Dennis. One wonders if somebody saw the opportunity to ensure that any eventual extension would go underground, by narrowing the roadway allotment and putting the underground premise into the land deal.
That corridor had been carefully preserved for close to forty years before Council sold those lands. That has to be one of the biggest sellouts this city has ever seen.
- Paul
Rainforest
Senior Member
Good enough is a relative term. One thing is to say that middle-of-road is good enough because we want to avoid higher costs of tunneling or elevating.
Another situation is when the corridor supporting a cheap fully-grade separated route existed, and has been preserved for decades, and all the sudden they decide to cell it off because middle-of-road is good enough. No excuse for that.
Another situation is when the corridor supporting a cheap fully-grade separated route existed, and has been preserved for decades, and all the sudden they decide to cell it off because middle-of-road is good enough. No excuse for that.
salsa
Senior Member
Even if the Eglinton corridor wasn't sold off to developers, I'm highly doubtful that we would actually see elevated transit here, or even in a trench. To do that would basically require demolishing the urban forest, replaced by a noisy and unsightly concrete structure that nobody wants. There is no way local residents here would let this fly. It's been hard enough to get the Davenport overpass started, but NIMBYism is especially strong in a wealthy area like central Etobicoke with strong political representation in both the city and province, and a population that generally doesn't care about public transit to begin with.
What this image also helps illustrate is that despite the selloffs, the vast majority of the Eglinton lands was still usable for transit. In the province's proposal, the elevated portion of the line could have easily continued past Islington at the very least, before being forced off-course by development. And yet this is not being contemplated by the province. Despite their willingness to save money on the relief line in a much more challenging built environment, they just won't do it in Etobicoke. And the city's planning department also came out against an elevated line in their ridiculous report, because they preferred a streetcar. So selloffs or not, this just shows that the idea of running trains above ground in this part of the city is just a pipe dream. It's just not going to happen.
What this image also helps illustrate is that despite the selloffs, the vast majority of the Eglinton lands was still usable for transit. In the province's proposal, the elevated portion of the line could have easily continued past Islington at the very least, before being forced off-course by development. And yet this is not being contemplated by the province. Despite their willingness to save money on the relief line in a much more challenging built environment, they just won't do it in Etobicoke. And the city's planning department also came out against an elevated line in their ridiculous report, because they preferred a streetcar. So selloffs or not, this just shows that the idea of running trains above ground in this part of the city is just a pipe dream. It's just not going to happen.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Fair enough. I would think that adding the middle-of-road LRT lanes would result is street widening and would have some impact on the urban forest, so it would be affected in any case. But, maybe two extra lanes have less impact than a trench.
Steve X
Senior Member
I highly doubt anything would change even if the properties weren't sold off. ML seems to have a default building method. Either in the middle of the road as preferred by the city or their one go tunnel everything first then build the station approach. The Scarborough subway and likely Yonge extension will be build like this too
salsa
Senior Member
There's be some impact for sure but not nearly as much. For widening the road, there's already a small shoulder lane along most of Eglinton, so just take a couple more metres from each side and we're good. Versus having to clear out most of forest on the north side to make room for the elevated guideway, construction equipment, and station buildings at each major intersection.
robmausser
Senior Member
I disagree with a lot of this.
Eglinton West is not Finch and its not Eglinton East.
The real benefit of transit in this corridor is not about local stops, running an LRT like a streetcar essentially. There are large sections on this LRT route where there is essentially parkland, very low density or interchange highway noodles.
The advantage of this route has always been an express service to areas more than 1000m apart, and to link together Renforth/Missisauga Transitway to the rest of the TTC system, get rapid transit to the airport lands area, and the airport itself. The best type of line for this area is a completely grade separated line in some fashion.
A slow trolly that stops at every intersection and has multiple stops would always has crippled the intended purpose of this line, and I think that to be useful, some kind of trenched or elevated rail in the Richview corridor (or tunneled, which is much more expensive, and would have been unnecessary had the corridor been kept) were always a necessity to bring out the maximum benefit of this line.
robmausser
Senior Member
While I agree with the rest of your points, the Richview corridor was zoned for transit development from the get go, so any opposition would be pretty weak. Its one thing to rezone a parkland forest as a transit corridor, but this was already ready to go.
sixrings
Senior Member
There isnt that many intersections on Eglinton west and the stop spacing always was going to be wider than finch. But screw it subways subways subways while we stop the gravy train post pandemic where money grows on trees and more people are working from home not needing transit.
Amare
Senior Member
To add to @robmausser's point, the costs of tunneling (if the province were ultimately still hard headed enough to go through with that method of construction, had the Richview expressways lands stayed development free) could have been significantly reduced as cut and cover could have been used throughout the entire corridor. As a result, you wouldnt be using TBM asides from at geologically complex areas.
The fact of the matter is, Toronto screwed this project up from a cost perspective and the city has no one to blame but themselves. The province is likely saving the city from screwing it up further (operationally) by tunneling the entire thing. Initially I was against tunneling the line because the costs are exorbitant but since the city cant get its act together with enabling signal priority, this is one of the only was of getting reliable transit built. Obviously I would prefer elevated, but it would never fly in this area in a million years. The amount of NIMBYism here is enough to rival the amount we see in the Annex area.
The fact of the matter is, Toronto screwed this project up from a cost perspective and the city has no one to blame but themselves. The province is likely saving the city from screwing it up further (operationally) by tunneling the entire thing. Initially I was against tunneling the line because the costs are exorbitant but since the city cant get its act together with enabling signal priority, this is one of the only was of getting reliable transit built. Obviously I would prefer elevated, but it would never fly in this area in a million years. The amount of NIMBYism here is enough to rival the amount we see in the Annex area.
salsa
Senior Member
I agree that the excuses are weak, but politics usually does not align with logic and reason. As I said, much more of the line could have been elevated. But unfortunately no one is willing to lose some votes or get pelted by angry residents at public meetings for doing the right thing. It's easier to just run on "subways", do a few studies on it and then not actually build anything.
sixrings
Senior Member
So they are wasting their time suggesting elevated for the Ontario line since the downtown nimbys will be out in full force. And nimbys got Scarborough to throw away a perfectly good piece of infrastructure. So Doug is right subways subways subways except when at Jane and finch where the community is more rational and accept any help offered.
asher__jo
Active Member
The narrative that is all Toronto's fault for selling off developable land is a bit much. Potentially Eglinton west will have more pedestrian friendly nodes with residential development near stations.
Towered
Senior Member
Looks like the remaining woodlots are toast.