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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

MisterF said:
This seems relevant to the Scarborough extension and other suburban subways that are needlessly underground and have been plagued by political meddling.

New report shows the soaring costs of transit construction in Toronto

The report concludes that subway construction is now 9 times more expensive than in 1954, a number that accounts for inflation, and that costs really only started to spiral out of control around the turn of the millennium. That makes sense, because from the 60s to the 80s subways were put above ground if possible, especially is less dense suburban areas. The huge cost discrepancy is especially jarring when you consider that the subways in the 1950s were built in the heart of downtown with stations close together while modern subways have mostly been in less complex, less dense areas with stations far apart.

Something is seriously wrong with the way Toronto builds mass transit.
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Different building standards in the 1950's. Asbestos was required to be used, for example, now they have to spend millions to remove them.

Escalators? Why? People can use the steps.

Elevators? Again why? Only multi-floor department stores need them.

Etc...
 
Streety McCarface said:
It's the way we value impact minimization. All these projects could be built much cheaper, even when deep boring it, there weren't bylaws restricting almost all progress. No noise exceeding this amount and only between these times. No vibration whatsoever, no vibration from train operations, construction vehicles cannot use the roads during x times, etc etc etc. It adds way too much to project complexity, and becomes almost impossible for a contractor to manage without costs going out of control.

There's also the fact that the parties that usually bid on these projects have zero field experience.
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W. K. Lis said:
Different building standards in the 1950's. Asbestos was required to be used, for example, now they have to spend millions to remove them.

Escalators? Why? People can use the steps.

Elevators? Again why? Only multi-floor department stores need them.

Etc...
Click to expand...

The Downsview extension cost $112 million/km (in 2019 dollars) in 1996, which is pretty close to what it cost in the 50s and 60s.
The Sheppard line cost $203 million/km in 2002.
The TYSSE cost $384 million/km in 2017.
The Ontario line and the Scarborough and Yonge North extensions are all estimated to be well north of $700 million/km.

The Ontario line is somewhat understandable since it will go through the densest, most complex part of the city. The rest could have been significantly cheaper with above ground sections. But even ignoring whether or not the lines are underground, these numbers show an alarming increase in costs since the 1990s. $700 million/km is appalling for a suburban transit project.

The fact that costs have increased so much since the 1950s isn't the real story. The real story is that subway construction is now 7x more expensive than it was in the 1990s. Were standards and noise restrictions really that different in the 1990s? Asbestos stopped being used well before then. How is Toronto allowing costs to balloon so much when other cities aren't?
 
H4F33Z said:
Elevators are not an amenity, they're a necessity. You might not need them, but other people will, and transit is for everyone.
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He meant back in the days they cared less. They aren't going to account for the 1% plus it's only 25-50 steps to the surface instead of 100-150 seen in the recent crosstown and SSE station deigns.

Stations were a lot closer on the surface so it was cheaper. They also don't need multiple exits, fire code standards were lower.

Downsview now Sheppard West was cheap to build case it mainly sits on vacant land and much of the alignment is on the surface on TTC land.
 
MisterF said:
The Downsview extension cost $112 million/km (in 2019 dollars) in 1996, which is pretty close to what it cost in the 50s and 60s.
The Sheppard line cost $203 million/km in 2002.
The TYSSE cost $384 million/km in 2017.
The Ontario line and the Scarborough and Yonge North extensions are all estimated to be well north of $700 million/km.

The Ontario line is somewhat understandable since it will go through the densest, most complex part of the city. The rest could have been significantly cheaper with above ground sections. But even ignoring whether or not the lines are underground, these numbers show an alarming increase in costs since the 1990s. $700 million/km is appalling for a suburban transit project.

The fact that costs have increased so much since the 1950s isn't the real story. The real story is that subway construction is now 7x more expensive than it was in the 1990s. Were standards and noise restrictions really that different in the 1990s? Asbestos stopped being used well before then. How is Toronto allowing costs to balloon so much when other cities aren't?
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Because Yonge North is actually extremely urban, at least until Steeles and in Richmond Hill Centre. There is also a 3-track 350 m extension beyond the RHC for a subway layover facility, which is badly needed on the Yonge side. The Ontario line is arguably less urban east of the Don River. It's just streetcar suburbs and a sewer.

We also tend to now build a lot more Tail Tracks and Crossovers. They add a lot of money to the cost of construction since they generally have to be built with cut and cover. Adding 2 extra crossovers and an extra set of tail tracks per extension is the equivalent of adding 3 extra stations — between 300 and 600 million dollars. There are also a lot more emergency fire exits and larger tunnels.

The Downsview extension is an outlier because most of it was built within the Wilson Yards and next to the Downsview Airport, which are areas that have noise restrictions that aren't nearly as significant as those downtown or in North York Centre.
 
Streety McCarface said:
Because Yonge North is actually extremely urban, at least until Steeles and in Richmond Hill Centre. There is also a 3-track 350 m extension beyond the RHC for a subway layover facility, which is badly needed on the Yonge side. The Ontario line is arguably less urban east of the Don River. It's just streetcar suburbs and a sewer.
Click to expand...

It is?
 
Steve X said:
He meant back in the days they cared less. They aren't going to account for the 1% plus it's only 25-50 steps to the surface instead of 100-150 seen in the recent crosstown and SSE station deigns.

Stations were a lot closer on the surface so it was cheaper. They also don't need multiple exits, fire code standards were lower.

Downsview now Sheppard West was cheap to build case it mainly sits on vacant land and much of the alignment is on the surface on TTC land.
Click to expand...

They're spending a billion dollars to make all the old station just accessible. Plus millions more for other upgrades needed.
 
Streety McCarface said:
Because Yonge North is actually extremely urban, at least until Steeles and in Richmond Hill Centre. There is also a 3-track 350 m extension beyond the RHC for a subway layover facility, which is badly needed on the Yonge side. The Ontario line is arguably less urban east of the Don River. It's just streetcar suburbs and a sewer.

We also tend to now build a lot more Tail Tracks and Crossovers. They add a lot of money to the cost of construction since they generally have to be built with cut and cover. Adding 2 extra crossovers and an extra set of tail tracks per extension is the equivalent of adding 3 extra stations — between 300 and 600 million dollars. There are also a lot more emergency fire exits and larger tunnels.

The Downsview extension is an outlier because most of it was built within the Wilson Yards and next to the Downsview Airport, which are areas that have noise restrictions that aren't nearly as significant as those downtown or in North York Centre.
Click to expand...
Calling Yonge north extremely urban is a bit of a stretch. It has a very wide right of way and buildings tend to be set far back from the road. Even new buildings with retail on the ground floor are set well back from the sidewalk, with a grass boulevard separating the storefronts from the sidewalk, so much so that they had to build a second, privately owned sidewalk that pedestrians have to go out of their way to get to. There's way more room to work with on a street like that than traditional urban neighbourhoods and streetcar suburbs. Not to mention that the Scarborough and Vaughan extensions go through highly suburban built forms that are vastly easier to build in than older areas.

There's no good reason why rapid transit through these areas should be almost 4 times more expensive than the Sheppard line was only 18 years ago.
 
Good thing with those rapidly rising costs we chose to build the relative luxury that is Eglinton instead of the absolute necessity that is the DRL. Thank you, Mayor Miller. Totally awesome transit planning decision!

Yonge north isn't extremely urban, but it's getting a bit less suburban every year.
 
GenerationW said:
Good thing with those rapidly rising costs we chose to build the relative luxury that is Eglinton instead of the absolute necessity that is the DRL. Thank you, Mayor Miller. Totally awesome transit planning decision!

Yonge north isn't extremely urban, but it's getting a bit less suburban every year.
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Eglinton actually needs rapid transit.
 
Eglinton was rough. Rush hour you would see 7-8 buses bunching together every 5 minutes. For mobility and connectivity reasons, we needed a cross-town route north of Bloor too.

I would still prefer the Eglinton Line over the DRL, as big of an advocate of the DRL I am. The Eglinton Line actually makes the DRL more useful too.
 
Miller explored building the relief line but transit experts told him it wasn't needed any time soon so he proposed transit city instead. This was based on

1. The TYSSE would divert riders from the north west off the Yonge Line.
2. New Toronto Rocket trains would have more capacity than the old trains.
3. Automatic Train Control would allow the line to run trains closer together.

Most of Transit City would have been built by now and the relief line would be under construction.

Let's not rewrite history here.
 
GenerationW said:
Good thing with those rapidly rising costs we chose to build the relative luxury that is Eglinton instead of the absolute necessity that is the DRL. Thank you, Mayor Miller. Totally awesome transit planning decision!
Click to expand...

Miller and the left has been out of power for ten years now. The leaders that came after had plenty of time to move forward on the relief line and let the transit city projects run its course without the need for interference. They had an entire decade to get it started, and to prove that their overall management of the city was better than Miller's. An entire decade, and what do they have to show for it? Absolutely nothing.

So when will people like you finally give some due credit where it truly belongs? For starters,
  • The cowardice of the Wynne government in rejecting dedicated revenue tools has forever ensured that money for transit will be scarce, bitterly fought for and stretched thin between competing priorities in every budget/election cycle. We will continue to fight over which badly-needed line gets to happen first and which ones will be left to our grandkids to deal with, but it didn't have to be this way.
  • Transit City was never intended to take this long to be done and over with. But the Liberals allowed every line to be reduced in scope, delayed by many years, or eventually cancelled. Contrary to popular belief, Rob Ford never had the authority to unilaterally tear up transit plans without a council vote. Everything that he did was done with the blessing of the Liberals, and later made worse by city council's inability to stick to a transit plan for more than a few months.
  • Miller's priorities was not downtown-centric enough for you, but his successor ran on an anti-downtown platform and consumed all his political capital on suburban subway expansion. Then John Tory ran on SmartTrack which nobody asked for, attacked the business case for the relief line, diverted city resources from the planning work on the RL, and has now lost control of the whole thing to Doug Ford.
  • For a long time the TTC insisted that we didn't need the relief line thanks to ATC and new trains, while at Metrolinx the relief line was only a 25 year priority under the original Big Move plan. If the need for a relief line was so obvious back then, then maybe the technocrats should have given better advice to their political overlords.
 
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