Buildings you'd like to obliterate...

[TKTKTK]

Oh man...you have it so wrong. I think it has to do with who you perceive as the "elite". It isn't some dark secret society...it is simply "those most knowledgable or qualified".

No it isn't. The elite is just a power structure, it's separate from both knowledge and qualification. Being most knowledgeable or qualified can just as easily leave you in the mainstream, or as an outlaw.

It's the assumption that the elite is the most knowledgeable and most qualified that consolidates their power, it's not any different than refusing to challenge authority based on a feeling of comparative self-worthlessness. They must be right, you must be wrong.

There's a reason why we only allow dentists to work on our teeth, as opposed to just anybody. There's a reason only pilots can fly an airliner. There's a reason only the best atheletes go to the olympics. There's a reason only certain people are professors. Because they are all the most knowledgeable or qualified in their fields. They are the "elite". I don't feel condescended to because my dentist knows more about my teeth than I do.

That's not the same thing. Dentists, doctors, engineers, and architects, require specialized technical knowledge to ensure public safety. They don't require special aesthetic knowledge, and they're under no real onus to ensure public beauty. You're racing to embrace authority without even properly stopping to ask why.

The professor example is particularly funny. You've never heard the saying "Them that can, do. Them that can't, teach." ?

And it is society in general that creates the elites because that is what we want....and why wouldn't we?

Why would that not apply to art, literature, fashion, architecture?

Of course...it does.

It does if you think your contribution to those 4 forms can only amount to consumption. The elite power structure stands in the way of any alternative voice coming forward. It doesn't create the impossibility of other voices being heard, but it certainly makes the effort to ignore or discredit those that it disagrees with.

I suppose it comes down to two different world views. You're happy having others think and make judgments for you. I prefer to think and make judgments for myself.

I'd make a shitty AD if I didn't believe in my own taste and aesthetic.

Everything from Aristotle to Marshall McLuhan...and too much inbetween. I hope for your sake that wasn't a rhetorical question.

But not Kant?

 

[TKTKTK]

Though they're of trivia-contest interest as Toronto's first built SOM towers. Personally, I find they're as underrated as Scotia Plaza is overrated--at least, 161 Bay is; or at least its Kharkov Gosprom-influenced top is.

Agreed. I've never been entirely sure where the ScotiaBank fanboyism comes from.

 

[freshcutgrass]

The professor example is particularly funny. You've never heard the saying "Them that can, do. Them that can't, teach." ?

Yea, add..."and them that can't teach, teach gym" and you have a line from Annie hall. Your point?

Hey...Marshall McLuhan was in Annie hall!

doo doo doo doo

I suppose it comes down to two different world views. You're happy having others think and make judgments for you. I prefer to think and make judgments for myself.

Aw..no. You just seem to have a very myopic view of things, which is why you are jumping to wild assumptions and sweeping conclusions about me, when you really have no clue. You seem to be doing what all insecure people do...lash out and make up boogymen.

And perhaps you have made a fatal flaw in your reasoning...forgot to consider the fact that I might consider myself one of the elite? Kinda changes the whole ballgame. (but please don't confuse with a member of the Cheddington Appreciation Society)

I'd make a shitty AD if I didn't believe in my own taste and aesthetic.

Hey...everybody thinks they have good taste and a sense of humour (even Sun readers), but they all couldn't possibly have, could they? (please stop me before I quote more lines from films).

It all boils down to who you think validates these delusions for you.

But not Kant?

Does Kant fall somewhere between Aristotle and McLuhan?

 

[freshcutgrass]

Though they're of trivia-contest interest as Toronto's first built SOM towers.

Did you say drival contest?

Personally, I find they're as underrated as Scotia Plaza is overrated

That's a tricky one...depends on how under-rated you think they are, and how over-rated you think SP is. I'll bet you a sandwich that Sun readers would rank them #1. (or at least, 161 Bay; or at least its Woody Woodpecker-influenced top is)

at least, 161 Bay is; or at least its Kharkov Gosprom-influenced top is.

Or maybe at least the door handle on the men's washroom is?

 

[TKTKTK]

Aw..no. You just seem to have a very myopic view of things, which is why you are jumping to wild assumptions and sweeping conclusions about me, when you really have no clue. You seem to be doing what all insecure people do...lash out and make up boogymen.

Huh? What - like you just did?

And perhaps you have made a fatal flaw in your reasoning...forgot to consider the fact that I might consider myself one of the elite? Kinda changes the whole ballgame. (but please don't confuse with a member of the Cheddington Appreciation Society)

Duh? Of course you consider yourself a part of the elite. That was obvious about a million posts ago

Hey...everybody thinks they have good taste and a sense of humour (even Sun readers), but they all couldn't possibly have, could they? (please stop me before I quote more lines from films).

Buh. Who cares about Sun readers? Why do they keep getting mentioned? Do you, or someone you love, work for the Star?

 

[freshcutgrass]

What - like you just did?

This "I know you are but what am I" type of response is just too school-yard for me.

Duh? Of course you consider yourself a part of the elite. That was obvious about a million posts ago

Which contradicts your earlier assertion that I am just one of the mindless sheep in your "there are two kinds of people" theory.

Buh. Who cares about Sun readers?

You do...don't you want to boot out the status quo elitists, and replace them with Sun readers?

Do you, or someone you love, work for the Star?

Oh, so you think the Star is the antithesis of the Sun? ...interesting.


The librarian grows weary now, so I bid you goodbye..... goodbye

 

[adma]

Or maybe at least the door handle on the men's washroom is?

Gosprom

Proto-BCE, huh?

 

[adma]

Not being an architectural elite, or being versed on current architectural aesthetic discourse, is not ignorance. Through almost our entire built history the average public has been able to engage with the architecture without having to understand 100 years worth of development. As base as it sounds, it was enough to like a building because it was considered beautiful to you - you didn't have to take in to account the architect's intention to create a space that revels in modern society's anxiety. It's the difference between the Mona Lisa and Barnett Newman's Voice of Fire. I appreciate both, but I'd never suggest Voice of Fire is better because of it's esoterism.

Though here's a radical statement: what's the "actual" mass appeal of the Mona Lisa? I'll betcha it's less as a great work of art, than as a "great work of art" (quotes intentional)...

 

[LowPolygon]

Though here's a radical statement: what's the "actual" mass appeal of the Mona Lisa? I'll betcha it's less as a great work of art, than as a "great work of art" (quotes intentional)...

that's exactly right. for almost 400 years, the Mona Lisa was considered to be a relatively minor, albeit very inspired, painting in the oeuvre of Leonardo. it wasn't until the rise of mass reproduction and the rise of a popular press in the late 19th century that its fame started to grow. it became the 'most famous painting in the world' on the back of its circulation as an image in cheap periodicals. its iconic status was clinched for all eternity when it was stolen in 1911--setting off the first great whodunnit in art history. it was a massive international news story, and in the 2.5 years that the Mona Lisa was missing its fame--and the mythos surrounding the "mona lisa smile"--spread all over the Western World.

 

[TKTKTK]

Though here's a radical statement: what's the "actual" mass appeal of the Mona Lisa? I'll betcha it's less as a great work of art, than as a "great work of art" (quotes intentional)...

Absolutely, but that's also a function of the elite structure that surrounds the Mona Lisa. It MUST be important if it deserves all this focus by others. It's an echo chamber.

 

[LowPolygon]

Absolutely, but that's also a function of the elite structure that surrounds the Mona Lisa. It MUST be important if it deserves all this focus by others. It's an echo chamber.

There is no 'elite structure' surrounding the Mona Lisa. it is of no interest whatsoever to people who are in the 'elite' of the art world. it is far too common an image to generate any interest and discussion amongst the cognoscenti. the only people who think the Mona Lisa is "the greatest painting ever" are people who know absolutely nothing about art or its history.

 

[TKTKTK]

Which contradicts your earlier assertion that I am just one of the mindless sheep in your "there are two kinds of people" theory.

Only if you assume the elite can't also be sheep. Not every elite is an elite, some are just hangers on.

Anyway, it was an obvious dramatic over-simplification. You don't have to be so literal.

You do...don't you want to boot out the status quo elitists, and replace them with Sun readers?

Not really. I just think the default assumption that they can't be anything more than bottom dwellers is a bit much. It's such an obvious, and pointless, elitist attitude.

Oh, so you think the Star is the antithesis of the Sun? ...interesting.

No, I just think they're probably the only organization that even remembers the Sun is in production, nevermind have an opinion on their readers.

 

[TKTKTK]

There is no 'elite structure' surrounding the Mona Lisa. it is of no interest whatsoever to people who are in the 'elite' of the art world. it is far too common an image to generate any interest and discussion amongst the cognoscenti. the only people who think the Mona Lisa is "the greatest painting ever" are people who know absolutely nothing about art or its history.

Sure there is. It's housed in the Louvre, and visibly protected better than any other work of art there. It's coded up on all sides to read as important, important, important, even if you don't know why it's important. And it's not totally devoid of any importance either, so you might not want to beat that drum too loudly. Mona Lisa was a favourite of the Symbolists, who are the ones responsible for drawing attention back to the work. No doubt mass reproduction helped popularize her with the masses.

This also touches on taste as a marker of social status. As long as the Mona Lisa is every pleb's favourite work it'll be too unsavoury to be considered anything but populist drivel by the elite. It's an opportunity to express distinction.

 

[LowPolygon]

Sure there is. It's housed in the Louvre, and visibly protected better than any other work of art there. It's coded up on all sides to read as important, important, important, even if you don't know why it's important. And it's not totally devoid of any importance either, so you might not want to beat that drum too loudly. Mona Lisa was a favourite of the Symbolists, who are the ones responsible for drawing attention back to the work. No doubt mass reproduction helped popularize her with the masses.

This also touches on taste as a marker of social status. As long as the Mona Lisa is every pleb's favourite work it'll be too unsavoury to be considered anything but populist drivel by the elite. It's an opportunity to express distinction.

you're throwing all sorts of contradictions around--all of them stemming from your ill-considered and unfleshed out use of this godawful word "elite".

first you say that there is an 'elite structure' surrounding the work, guaranteeing its value. then you claim that "As long as the Mona Lisa is every pleb's favourite work it'll be too unsavoury to be considered anything but populist drivel by the elite" which is it? does the elite consider the Mona Lisa populist drivel, or are they guaranteeing its status as a masterpiece?

also, the fact the Mona Lisa is more visibly guarded in the Louvre than other works, is only evidence of its insurance value. i don't think security guards are part of the 'elite'.

and yes, you're right the Mona Lisa is not without value. i didn't say it was--i said it languished as a heralded but somewhat unremarkable work for almost 400 years before its "discovery" in the latter 19th century. and you're right, the symbolists were interested in the painting.

 

[Urban Shocker]

In the arts and design "elite" refers to the best work that is produced and to those who produce it. This tired concept of a secret society setting rules for artists to follow and putting up barriers to thwart the rest of the population from experiencing art verges on paranoia.