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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)

Again, I don't believe what you have implied is anything close to what Councillor or constituents are saying
 
I'm ridiculing the entitlement of the Councillor's constituents who are opposing the tax increase. You even said that they're calling it "our subway line", as if it's a reward for astounding service to the rest of the city or something. If suburban Scarborough residents only want to pay for "their" transit, then how can they expect the city west of Victoria Park to pay into it?
 
north-of-anything said:
I'm ridiculing the entitlement of the Councillor's constituents who are opposing the tax increase. You even said that they're calling it "our subway line", as if it's a reward for astounding service to the rest of the city or something. If suburban Scarborough residents only want to pay for "their" transit, then how can they expect the city west of Victoria Park to pay into it?
Click to expand...

Entitlement is those Politicians that have great transit infrastructure and subways relentlessly campaigning elections in their far away wards and telling the 'have not' areas what there transit should look like

There is nothing really entitled about this specific area of Scarborough requesting the subway extension get on the Citys priority list as it should have always been and also noting his constituents have little interest in paying for other areas with such lack of equity or respect. Fits in well with your spin on what was being said.

Any appetite for taxes certainly wont happen until the City builds better bridges. Were finally seeing some steps being made and adding the Sheppard subway as a priority would likely only help the entire City slowly start moving forward away from the very strong apathetic low tax vote that exists. If outside areas continue to fight to decide transit solutions and ridicule voters here, good luck. We've already seen clearly what can happen politically when this occurs
 
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OneCity said:
Entitlement is those Politicians that have great transit infrastructure and subways relentlessly campaigning elections in their far away wards and telling the 'have not' areas what there transit should look like

There is nothing really entitled about this specific area of Scarborough requesting the subway extension get on the Citys priority list as it should have always been and also noting his constituents have little interest in paying for other areas with such lack of equity or respect. Fits in well with your spin on what was being said.

Any appetite for taxes certainly wont happen until the City builds better bridges. Were finally seeing some steps being made and adding the Sheppard subway as a priority would likely only help the entire City slowly start moving forward away from the very strong apathetic low tax vote that exists. If outside areas continue to fight to decide transit solutions and ridicule voters here, good luck. We've already seen clearly what can happen politically when this occurs
Click to expand...
Do these same advocates promote redevelopment of their bungalow filled streets with denser forms of housing?

The only entitlement that I see is the entitlement of residents in the low-density suburb of Scarborough expecting a level of municipal servicing akin to the highest density parts of Toronto, despite their lack of willingness to change the predominant built form of their neighbourhoods. As a result of amalgamation, Scarborough residents have already got a great deal, with the same level of municipal servicing as the rest of the city thanks to our single-tier system, without the density to really warrant it (meaning it's subsidized by the rest of the city).
 
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WislaHD said:
Do these same advocates promote redevelopment of their bungalow filled streets with denser forms of housing?

The only entitlement that I see is the entitlement of residents in the low-density suburb of Scarborough expecting a level of municipal servicing akin to the highest density parts of Toronto, despite their lack of willingness to change the predominant built form of their neighbourhoods. As a result of amalgamation, Scarborough residents have already got a great deal, with the same level of municipal servicing as the rest of the city thanks to our single-tier system, without the density to really warrant it (meaning it's subsidized by the rest of the city).
Click to expand...
To be entirely fair, no one wants to lose their house, or even apartment, for the greater good of society. Just like when a bunch of people in the Annex got the Spadina expressway cancelled because they didn't want their homes demolished or their landscape changed, people in Scarborough don't want to lose their home to a construction site.

We see the same NIMBY perspectives everywhere in Toronto, not just in Scarborough or North York. People in Leslieville don't want an above-ground Ontario line, if you built a streetcar line or a new high-rise in any one of the streetcar suburbs, people would riot. If you suddenly had to evict an entire high-rise in downtown, people would sue.
 
OneCity said:
Entitlement is those Politicians that have great transit infrastructure and subways relentlessly campaigning elections in their far away wards and telling the 'have not' areas what there transit should look like
Click to expand...

But wouldn't you acknowledge that in fairness Miller/Perks others were advocating for a larger network of suburban LRTs even before they started talking about a DRL? Or are you putting more emphasis on the "should look like part". So you'll acknowledge they advocated for Finch, Jane, Don Mills, Sheppard, Scarborough-Malvern (Crosstown to Malvern, Eglinton East to Sheppard/Malvern, but the really issue is you don't like the technology.

It just feels too simplistic to say these downtown folks had no map, plan, or call for investment outside their areas.

Collection of maps below to visualize the distribution.

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WislaHD said:
The only entitlement that I see is the entitlement of residents in the low-density suburb of Scarborough expecting a level of municipal servicing akin to the highest density parts of Toronto, despite their lack of willingness to change the predominant built form of their neighbourhoods. As a result of amalgamation, Scarborough residents have already got a great deal, with the same level of municipal servicing as the rest of the city thanks to our single-tier system, without the density to really warrant it (meaning it's subsidized by the rest of the city).
Click to expand...

I have to disagree here. Scarborough's density is similar to that of Etobicoke and much of North York (excluding the Yonge corridor in the latter), and probably Scarborough pays about same amount of taxes per capita as Etobicoke and North York.

In terms of transit endowement, Scarborough is definitely worse off compared to the other two. Similar frequency of the major bus routes, but substantially longer trips to the subway.

Therefore, their complaints aren't unresonable. And, it isn't unreasonable to extend at least one subway line (SSE) deeper into Scarborough, to even out the subway coverage.

I'm less enthusiastic about the Sheppard extension, as I don't see that as a near-term priority.
 
Allandale25 said:
But wouldn't you acknowledge that in fairness Miller/Perks others were advocating for a larger network of suburban LRTs even before they started talking about a DRL? Or are you putting more emphasis on the "should look like part". So you'll acknowledge they advocated for Finch, Jane, Don Mills, Sheppard, Scarborough-Malvern (Crosstown to Malvern, Eglinton East to Sheppard/Malvern, but the really issue is you don't like the technology.

It just feels too simplistic to say these downtown folks had no map, plan, or call for investment outside their areas.

Collection of maps below to visualize the distribution.
Click to expand...

'but the really issue is you don't like the technology.'

Seriously?

Didnt expect this from you, but its the kinda narrow crap a handful here on UT have tried to corner those who supported a central subway connection with. To be crystal clear I have absolutely zero issue with the LRT technology itself, and also support the EELRT as it currently stands if you have read my posts. My issue was always the legacy design of the current RT and the piss poor integration/design of both the SELRT and old SMLRT (which will be improved as the EELRT) and I am also just as thrilled if we can add BRT as a priority over LRT as feeders to stretch more north-south, and east-west route where capacity is not an issue.

I firmly believe the Transit City plan was far too simplistic, ideological as it lacked very important details necessary to responsibly evolve such a diverse area into a broader network. It should have never happened and if you read back in UT pre-Trasnit City most would have never expected this outcome. Even for those who preferred to completely cheap out on Scarborough, LRT wasn't the right option and it certainly wasn't the right option for those wanting to see better central connectivity. I get the Ford subways calls were reciprocal to this plan but they are the more important backbones of the network here and for some the LRT technology itself has also become all that mattered. Just like you state above anyone who questions the plans automatically 'dislikes the technology' or as others irrational label 'Ford lover'... Ive seen some pretty deranged automatic labels spit-out from a small handful of ultra pro LRT tech lovers on UT over the years.

As far as outside Councillors go my gripe is with those who completely refused to listen or work with 99% of Scarborough Councillors, MPP's and recent Mayors, they chose to double down on corner cutting simplicity for over a decade. We actually even had one Councillor still campaigning a downtown riding last election on stopping subways in Scarborough. That is very extreme entitlement and only heightens a City divide while having no tangible impact or relevance. And if anything it just helps the Ford type vote gain strength, which seems quite counter productive to the cause. While Tory has very little power within the City and nothing with the Province, his leadership of being respectful to all areas of this mega City and building bridges is exactly what we should expect from all City Councillors of any stripe or geographic location to help move the City forward in the future
 
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