Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

WislaHD said:
I can't help but think the reduced scope of Phase 1 of the Relief Line led to this.
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Nope.

Once Metrolinx got involved, there was always going to be some sort of "catch" or "a-ha" moment. They need to prove to their masters that they are better than the TTC.

Dan
 
The effect of the shortening of the first phase of the Relief Line is that it gave bias to the Ontario Line seeming very attractive for its length and benefits in the first phase. If the first phase of the Relief Line included both RLS and RLN then the Ontario Line’s Initial Business Case wouldn’t look as overwhelmingly one sided.
 
Leo_Chan said:
The effect of the shortening of the first phase of the Relief Line is that it gave bias to the Ontario Line seeming very attractive for its length and benefits in the first phase. If the first phase of the Relief Line included both RLS and RLN then the Ontario Line’s Initial Business Case wouldn’t look as overwhelmingly one sided.
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Either way the Ontario line would look cheaper and God knows that's how we like to do things in Toronto. Cheap where it matters and expensive where it doesn't. I'm looking at you Scarborough and Vaughan.
 
Dates have been added to the website run by the local residents opposed to the surface portion of the Ontario Line through the Riverdale portion.

Ontario Line - Key Dates — Lakeshore East Trains

www.lakeshoreeasttrains.com www.lakeshoreeasttrains.com

207103
 
Leo_Chan said:
The effect of the shortening of the first phase of the Relief Line is that it gave bias to the Ontario Line seeming very attractive for its length and benefits in the first phase. If the first phase of the Relief Line included both RLS and RLN then the Ontario Line’s Initial Business Case wouldn’t look as overwhelmingly one sided.
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Well, duh. There's not a single major category that the Ontario Line would outperform the Relief Line North in, other than relieving pressure on the downtown streetcar network. There are some good elements to the proposal, such as reducing the vertical elevations of stations, but overall the OL proposal is a total joke.

All the Ontario government had to do was commit another $5 Billion or so to extend the RLS to Sheppard. They didn't do that, because the Government of Ontario and their PR agency are determined to use this project as a tool to prove how incompetent the City of Toronto and TTC are, while ironically saddling us with a proposal that is technically inferior to the RLN proposed by Metrolinx, TTC and the City in virtually every way. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Even more ironic is that the ultimate result of this exercise will likely see the Relief Line, Scarborough Subway and the rest of the subway network immediately re-downloaded onto the City once the PCs are booted out of office in 2.5 years. Liberal leadership candidates are already talking of giving Toronto some sort of special legal status to ensure that the actions of the PC government can never be repeated again. Don't be surprised if the Federal Government and the Government of Ontario agree to enshrine Toronto with constitutional protections after this government is gone. It would be a relativity simple thing to achieve procedurally (the HoC and Legislature just both need a simple majority vote to amend the constitution), and it's the only way of ensuring this meddling doesn't happen ever again
 
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rbt said:
Yes, it will be difficult for the vendor to achieve real-world ridership of that capacity. From the below report it appears achieving high-quality high-frequency service requires running capacity quite a bit beyond what ridership requires. So, a 30kpphpd ridership might required running capacity for 36k; that's tight on small trains.

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Great source.

I extracted the rush-hour headways and the design capacities for a) lines designed for headways shorter than 2 min, and b) lines designed for 2-min headways:

Lille Lines 1 and 2 ::: 66 sec / 11,000 pphpd
Paris Line 14 ::: 85 sec / 25,000 pphpd
Rennes Line A ::: 100 sec / 6,000 pphpd
Toulouse Lines A and B ::: 80 sec / 7,000 pphpd

Copenhagen Lines 1 and 2 ::: 2 min / 12,000 pphpd
Lyon Line D ::: 2 min / 15,000 pphpd
Paris Line 1 ::: 2 min / 25,000 pphpd
Taipei Wenhu Line ::: 2 min / 28,400 pphpd
Vancouver Expo Line ::: 2 min / 16,000 pphpd
Vancouver Millenium Line ::: 2 min / 15,000 pphpd

The trend is low-ish capacity for lines with 2-min headways, and even lower for lines with < 2 min headways.

The only outlier is Paris Line 14, with 85 sec headways and designed for a solid 25,000 pphpd. That's still less than 29,000-34,000 contemplated for the Ontario Line.

So, 34k per hour per direction isn't outright impossible with smaller trains, but technical challenges are likely to arise. Fixing those challenges by using wider or longer trains might defeat the purpose of selecting the new route for the OL. The expected savings (compared to the mostly-underground option) are likely contingent on the ability to use smaller stations and handle tight turns.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Well, duh. There's not a single major category that the Ontario Line would outperform the Relief Line North in, other than relieving pressure on the downtown streetcar network. There are some good elements to the proposal, such as reducing the vertical elevations of stations, but overall the OL proposal is a total joke.

All the Ontario government had to do was commit another $5 Billion or so to extend the RLS to Sheppard. They didn't do that, because the Government of Ontario and their PR agency are determined to use this project as a tool to prove how incompetent the City of Toronto and TTC are, while ironically saddling us with a proposal that is technically inferior to the RLN proposed by Metrolinx, TTC and the City in virtually every way. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Even more ironic is that the ultimate result of this exercise will likely see the Relief Line, Scarborough Subway and the rest of the subway network immediately re-downloaded onto the City once the PCs are booted out of office in 2.5 years. Liberal leadership candidates are already talking of giving Toronto some sort of special legal status to ensure that the actions of the PC government can never be repeated again. Don't be surprised if the Federal Government and the Government of Ontario agree to enshrine Toronto with constitutional protections after this government is gone. It would be a relativity simple thing to achieve procedurally (the HoC and Legislature just both need a simple majority vote to amend the constitution), and it's the only way of ensuring this meddling doesn't happen ever again
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Classic example of wishful thinking...
 
Adjei said:
Classic example of wishful thinking...
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A classic example of talking tough behind the anonymity of the Internet is more like it. As if the past 20 some odd years of TTC / City management of subway expansion got us anywhere other than the massively overbuilt, over expensed TYSSE. At least the Ford government is at least attempting to change the dial, but heavens forbid that they be given the opportunity.
 
Hopkins123 said:
A classic example of talking tough behind the anonymity of the Internet is more like it. As if the past 20 some odd years of TTC / City management of subway expansion got us anywhere other than the massively overbuilt, over expensed TYSSE. At least the Ford government is at least attempting to change the dial, but heavens forbid that they be given the opportunity.
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Not everyone deserves the opportunity. All sorts of people said just give Rob a chance. See how that worked out. And then in the states give trump a chance. See how that is working out? Actually the Scarborough subway is Ford's version of trumps wall. He will come and go and nothing but promises were ever made. The good news is that both are a huge waste of tax money so no harm done.
 
smallspy said:
Nope.

Once Metrolinx got involved, there was always going to be some sort of "catch" or "a-ha" moment. They need to prove to their masters that they are better than the TTC.

Dan
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WislaHD said:
I can't help but think the reduced scope of Phase 1 of the Relief Line led to this.

It should have been Bathurst to Eglinton from the moment that City Planning took over the planning of this line.
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It did and it didn't. Metrolinx had been pushing this alignment for years even prior to Ford. The plan was to do this with GO trains years ago (link here.), but also the city should have been planning Eglinton/Don Mills to Dundas West or Keele from the get go.
TheTigerMaster said:
It’s a proposal built on lies and bs.

This proposal has so many fatal flaws that if it were subject to a technical competition, it wouldn’t even be deemed worthy of consideration. It doesn’t even adequately achieve its most fundamental goal of decongesting the Yonge Line (unlike the DRL North proposals)
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Agreed. They're going to scrap the SRT and then use the mark iii (let's be honest, that's who will win the vehicle competition after Ford is told monorails are a no-go) downtown? So why replace the SRT then?
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Liberal leadership candidates are already talking of giving Toronto some sort of special legal status to ensure that the actions of the PC government can never be repeated again. Don't be surprised if the Federal Government and the Government of Ontario agree to enshrine Toronto with constitutional protections after this government is gone. It would be a relativity simple thing to achieve procedurally (the HoC and Legislature just both need a simple majority vote to amend the constitution), and it's the only way of ensuring this meddling doesn't happen ever again
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I do see this eventually happening, even if it takes several decades. Quebec in some ways is an example of how you can make exceptions to Federalism and the Constitution (ex. giving QC the ability to handle their own pension plan).
 
Hopkins123 said:
A classic example of talking tough behind the anonymity of the Internet is more like it. As if the past 20 some odd years of TTC / City management of subway expansion got us anywhere other than the massively overbuilt, over expensed TYSSE. At least the Ford government is at least attempting to change the dial, but heavens forbid that they be given the opportunity.
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Given a chance? You do realize that we’re talking about an $11 Billion proposal, and not a high school art project? Politicians shouldn’t be afforded the opportunity to waste billions of dollars because they put together a fancy sales pitch - err, business case analysis - riddled with technical flaws.

Ford should get his chance when he comes back with a competent proposal. Until then he can kick rocks
 
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asher__jo said:
I do see this eventually happening, even if it takes several decades. Quebec in some ways is an example of how you can make exceptions to Federalism and the Constitution (ex. giving QC the ability to handle their own pension plan).
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Sooner or later, I do believe that granting Toronto special status is going to have to become a Federal-level interest. We are too important economically for the country to allow the misdirections of Queen's Park to subject us to gridlock.
 
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