Mississauga Hurontario-Main Line 10 LRT | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

I've always pictured a subway extension to Square One running along the Milton GO corridor on the surface to save costs over such a long distance. Something like:

Cloverdale
Sherway
Dixie (At rail corridor)
Cawthra (at rail corridor)
Cooksville (at GO Station)
Central Parkway / Elm (at Kariya)
Burnhamthorpe (at Kariya)
Square One

Perhaps it could be split into two phases, the first one as a small extension to Sherway. That type of alignment would make it so the 12km would have maybe 5km tunneled and 7km above grade.

The main problem with this would be that travel times would be getting pretty extreme to get downtown. It's already almost 30 minutes to get from Kipling to Bloor-Yonge, plus the new line would add another 18-19 minutes of travel time. Going from Square One to downtown would probably still take an hour on the subway.
 
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crs1026 said:
Be careful what you ask for!

Is there a length beyond which a subway is “too long”? At some point it must become hugely difficult to avoid bunching and gaps... and operators (short of fully auto operation) need breaks. It may not be desirable to keep extending eurher Line 1 or Line 2 outwards, for operational reasons. Let alone the issues of actually planning and building enough density along the full length to make it justifiable.

The construction cost would likely be better spent on Regional Rail, with HLRT and maybe some further. BRT/LRT linking to it.

And yes, there will be screams unless Line 2 also goes north to Markham.

- Paul
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Yes, subways can become too long. At some point, stop frequency on a subway becomes a detriment for longer distance travelers. For longer distances, commuter lines with fewer stops will be faster and more effective. Of course, is a RER style frequent all-day commuter line into central Mississauga ever going to be possible?
 
adrianaliu said:
missing link would be a far better investment for the western gta than any line 2 extension. since it now appears that it isn't happening I am open to a subway extension into mississauga but it would be such a shame tunneling right beside a rail corridor
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Subway could possibly be built at-grade in the rail corridor.

Depends on what CP is willing to allow.

However the subway should elevate and go directly to the Square though.

Like posters above said however, RER type rail is MUCH better for 905 distances. We need to stop extending the subways in Toronto, and realize this truth.

So hopefully CP would allow GO to build another track in the Milton Line corridor, but the issue with that we've learned from Via Rail trying to build commuter rail in Halifax is that apparently when you build tracks in CP or CNs corridor, they retain usage rights. So Metrolinx pays CP to add another track in their corridor and then hey, look at that, CP has another track for more freight trains. Sorry GO, we got all this freight to ship suddenly!

Something that would be a disaster if happened. Something that already happened with VIA rail and the Corridor. It seems that the Oshawa GO extension was a unique scenario where the province owned the CN lands before they were privatized.
 
I never understood the obsession with a subway to Square One. The Dundas buses are as busy as Yonge buses in York Region, way busier than Burnhamthorpe or any other east-west bus route in Mississauga, and the other east-west corridors in Mississauga have little or no redevelopment potential. Hurontario-Dundas is almost as busy a stop as CCTT too but somehow it never gets any attention. Building a subway in the GO Milton corridor would also not only be redundant, but also interfere with expansion GO train service. To have implement two-way, all-day service will already be difficult before you add a subway in there. To connect directly with Hurontario and fulfill the development potential of Dundas should be priority. Square One already has the Transitway, that is enough. If you really want to east-west line to CCTT, extension of Eglinton Crosstown would make more sense.
 
doady said:
I never understood the obsession with a subway to Square One. The Dundas buses are as busy as Yonge buses in York Region, way busier than Burnhamthorpe or any other east-west bus route in Mississauga, and the other east-west corridors in Mississauga have little or no redevelopment potential. Hurontario-Dundas is almost as busy a stop as CCTT too but somehow it never gets any attention. Building a subway in the GO Milton corridor would also not only be redundant, but also interfere with expansion GO train service. To have implement two-way, all-day service will already be difficult before you add a subway in there. To connect directly with Hurontario and fulfill the development potential of Dundas should be priority. Square One already has the Transitway, that is enough. If you really want to east-west line to CCTT, extension of Eglinton Crosstown would make more sense.
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Please see my comments above yours. GO/Metrolinx doesnt own the Milton corridor, CP does. The odds of them being allowed to build tracks in that corridor to expand Milton service in a way that doesnt cost them a ridiculous amount, OR allow CP to use the tracks for their own freight operations as well, is next to never.

A subway extension may be the only choice.
 
BurlOak said:
I think the stops should be:
  1. Orbiter
  2. Spectrum
  3. Tahoe North,
  4. Tahoe West
  5. Dixie
  6. Tomken
  7. Cawthra
  8. Central Pkwy
  9. City Centre (Sq1)
(i.e. Extend Eglinton)
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Exactly. Extend the Eglinton LRT along the Transitway ROW, and build it so that buses can run on the same corridor. Build a wye at Renforth Gateway so Mississauga trains have the option to route up to Pearson.
 
robmausser said:
Please see my comments above yours. GO/Metrolinx doesnt own the Milton corridor, CP does. The odds of them being allowed to build tracks in that corridor to expand Milton service in a way that doesnt cost them a ridiculous amount, OR allow CP to use the tracks for their own freight operations as well, is next to never.

A subway extension may be the only choice.
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Maybe I'm stupid, but I don't understand why subway tracks in the Milton corridor would be cheaper than GO train tracks in the corridor. The Milton corridor doesn't go to Square One anyways.

I already offered other choices: extending subway along Dundas to connect with the Hurontario LRT (which will serve Square One), extending the Eglinton Crosstown line to Square One, or simply continuing to use the existing Transitway (which already serves Square One). A 10km subway extension simply to serve Square One is not only extremely expensive, it is also redundant. A 8 km subway extension along Dundas and connect directly to the LRT would serve far more riders and encourage far more redevelopment.

And it's not like a Bloor-Danforth extension could directly connect Square One to the Financial District anyways. No matter what it there will not be a line from point A to point B. Better to build an extension to serve a whole corridor, not a single point.

Hurontario is the main corridor in Mississauga, and ultimately if you want to spend billlions on an east-west transit line in Mississauga, it should prioritize connecting to Hurontario, not pretend that Hurontario doesn't exist.
 
^CP has never said “No”. What they have said is “Bring Money”.
The cost of Milton RER has only been painful in the context of what the Province has available for RER. That’s about 15.4B IIRC.....let’s say a Milton RER would be another $2B.... can we build a subway extension to Square 1 for $2B? Maybe more like $12B!
Neither option can be funded for a few years yet -, given the other projects under way. But when money is available, would it not make sense to build the cheaper RER and some LRT?
- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
The cost of Milton RER has only been painful in the context of what the Province has available for RER. That’s about 15.4B IIRC.....let’s say a Milton RER would be another $2B.... can we build a subway extension to Square 1 for $2B? Maybe more like $12B!
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Underground expansion is indeed ridiculous when a surface corridor is (partially) available.

That said, in 2015 the estimate for a basic additional pair of tracks for Milton corridor was $3.5B; expropriation, track, basic station modifications (no electrification, etc.). A worth-while project.
 
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rbt said:
Underground expansion is indeed ridiculous when a surface corridor is (partially) available.

That said, in 2015 the estimate for a basic additional pair of tracks for Milton corridor was $3.5B; expropriation, track, basic station modifications (no electrification, etc.). A worth-while project.
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Personally I think that is way too much money for just a pair of tracks that according to our laws in Canada, CP will be allowed to use for freight AND most likely will do so
 
I think Mississauga wants to put BRT on Dundas from Winston Churchill to Kipling Station. A Line 2 extension under Dundas might be better than an extension to Square One, but it would still be redundant and possibly overbuilding. I think the most efficient way to link Mississauga and Toronto's downtown cores would be to transfer between Hurontario LRT and GO at Port Credit.
 
crs1026 said:
Be careful what you ask for!

Is there a length beyond which a subway is “too long”? At some point it must become hugely difficult to avoid bunching and gaps... and operators (short of fully auto operation) need breaks. It may not be desirable to keep extending eurher Line 1 or Line 2 outwards, for operational reasons. Let alone the issues of actually planning and building enough density along the full length to make it justifiable.

The construction cost would likely be better spent on Regional Rail, with HLRT and maybe some further. BRT/LRT linking to it.

And yes, there will be screams unless Line 2 also goes north to Markham.

- Paul
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I agree entirely. Maybe I was unclear. What I meant was I'm glad Mississauga can't demand a subway or bust like Scarborough and delay Toronto transit building.
 
robmausser said:
Personally I think that is way too much money for just a pair of tracks that according to our laws in Canada, CP will be allowed to use for freight AND most likely will do so
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CP would first have to have enough freight to want to use the added trackage as well as the track it has now. It doesn’t presently have that volume of traffic.

Have a read of this CTA ruling https://www.otc-cta.gc.ca/eng/ruling/195-r-2013

The clear message is that it’s expected that the parties will negotiate a commercial agreement, and once that agreement is reached, it governs. So one would expect that if ML is paying to add tracks then they would negotiate an agreement with CP that would protect its right to priority over CP on these. If ML can’t get a reasonable deal with CP, it can appeal to the CTA.

Sure, It’s always possible that ML might negotiate poorly and end up with an agreement that gives CP an advantage. (I have heard comments that the quality of the agreements with CN when ML bought other lines is part of what has hamstrung ML elsewhere). But one would expect that ML would do a proper job of this. And the risk of being taken before the CTA is what would encourage CP to play ball.

The issue for this discussion is, what form of ML line would be compatible with CP’s operations and also be compatible with serving communities all the way to Milton (and perhaps Cambridge some day) - and also permit a stub branch or extended line up to Square One. One can’t extend Line 2, because a subway can’t run on a shared CP ML corridor. An extended subway could occupy its own space on the CP ROW, but that might take away capacity from RER service to communities west of there. I suppose one could build a GO sized tunnel from a junction at Cooksville to Square One, but that seems like a dubious value when the LRT will parallel it.

Personally, I would extend Line 2 only to Cloverdale, put a connecting LRT on Dundas across Mississauga, (notwithstanding the studies that say LRT isn’t required) and leave the CP line for vanilla RER. It might impress @OneCity if it turned out that across the platform transfer from LRT to subway work just fine.

- Paul
 
gweed123 said:
Exactly. Extend the Eglinton LRT along the Transitway ROW, and build it so that buses can run on the same corridor. Build a wye at Renforth Gateway so Mississauga trains have the option to route up to Pearson.
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Not only would it allow buses to use the transitway after construction of the LRT, it would also be during construction so short sections of track can be laid while the bus transitway is still in service.
 
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