TTC: St. Clair Streetcar Right Of Way

[W. K. Lis]

The Old Weston Rd bridge connected Old Weston Rd south of the junction to Old Weston Rd north of the junction.

Old Weston Road (and the west part of Rogers Road) was the original Weston Road.

From link.

It was part of the "portage" from Lake Ontario using Indian Road, part of Dundas Street, and (Old) Weston Road. The railways messed up the roads when they were built.

 

[torontocolin]

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of extending the Bathurst car up to Eglinton as a theory, but in my mind there are two quibbles: one, an on-street loop is not an option. Cars need to turn back at the station, and there needs to be a location for buses to turn back as well. The second is an answer that no one will have for many years, and that is: will the traffic patterns justify it? Once the Crosstown is running, will enough people be using Eglinton as a transfer point, and will the ridership to the section south of Eglinton increase enough to justify building the 2+km of double-track (not to mention whatever structure is used for the loop).

This is why I think the city should have insisted that there be provision for a future loop in the redevelopment of the south-west corner of Bathurst and Eglinton. You don't have to ever use it if it doesn't make sense, but if you want it one day it's there.

 

[Rainforest]

For the record, the bridge over the Cedarvale Ravine was designed specifically with streetcars in mind.

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of extending the Bathurst car up to Eglinton as a theory, but in my mind there are two quibbles: one, an on-street loop is not an option. Cars need to turn back at the station, and there needs to be a location for buses to turn back as well. The second is an answer that no one will have for many years, and that is: will the traffic patterns justify it? Once the Crosstown is running, will enough people be using Eglinton as a transfer point, and will the ridership to the section south of Eglinton increase enough to justify building the 2+km of double-track (not to mention whatever structure is used for the loop).

Dan

The traffic patterns might change, with more transfers at Eglinton and fewer at Bloor. The Eglinton line will be fast and fairly long, therefore suitable as a part of many trips that don't begin or end in downtown.

The loops will be a problem.

 

[Jaye101]

Wow, I had no idea the bridge was there until 1983. I wonder if there’s still enough space for such a bridge considering the Junction has changed so much since then.

I would think it would have been considered when the city proposed the extensions to Davenport, Gunn’s Road, and Keele Street.

 

[smallspy]

This is why I think the city should have insisted that there be provision for a future loop in the redevelopment of the south-west corner of Bathurst and Eglinton. You don't have to ever use it if it doesn't make sense, but if you want it one day it's there.

The traffic patterns might change, with more transfers at Eglinton and fewer at Bloor. The Eglinton line will be fast and fairly long, therefore suitable as a part of many trips that don't begin or end in downtown.

The loops will be a problem.

See, I don't see the lack of a loop being a problem - at least not yet.

The TTC has gone back and purchased more land for a bus loop (or loop expansion) well after the opening of the station if it felt it was necessary. We simply don't know if the loop is required yet - better to see how the traffic patterns settle out rather than buy and build it now and potentially not need it.

Dan

Edit: for the record, my original quibble was with the idea of an on-street loop at Eglinton, not the fact that there is no location for a loop as it sits.

 

[junctionist]

Wow, I had no idea the bridge was there until 1983. I wonder if there’s still enough space for such a bridge considering the Junction has changed so much since then.

I would think it would have been considered when the city proposed the extensions to Davenport, Gunn’s Road, and Keele Street.

It's hard to believe that the City removed the bridge instead of replacing it. It's hard to think of similar examples of major streets being severed. Someone here suggested once that it could have at least been rehabilitated into a pedestrian bridge, which would have helped to keep the Junction and Carlton Village neighbourhoods connected for pedestrians and cyclists. I think that's a good idea.

 

[smallspy]

It's hard to believe that the City removed the bridge instead of replacing it. It's hard to think of similar examples of major streets being severed. Someone here suggested once that it could have at least been rehabilitated into a pedestrian bridge, which would have helped to keep the Junction and Carlton Village neighbourhoods connected for pedestrians and cyclists. I think that's a good idea.

I *believe* that the issue at the time was that the traffic levels on it didn't justify what the cost of replacing the bridge would be. That, and it had some pretty serious structural deficiencies that would have required it to be removed at some point in the future anyways, regardless of it being converted to a pedestrian structure or not.

All that said - while I don't live in the area, I have spent a lot of time in the area over the years, and I don't honestly think that the absence of it has really negatively affected the neighbourhood. It is not an overly onerous detour to walk to Osler or over to Keele to get across the tracks.

Dan

 

[drum118]

I *believe* that the issue at the time was that the traffic levels on it didn't justify what the cost of replacing the bridge would be. That, and it had some pretty serious structural deficiencies that would have required it to be removed at some point in the future anyways, regardless of it being converted to a pedestrian structure or not.

All that said - while I don't live in the area, I have spent a lot of time in the area over the years, and I don't honestly think that the absence of it has really negatively affected the neighbourhood. It is not an overly onerous detour to walk to Osler or over to Keele to get across the tracks.

Dan

That great to say doing it during the warm weather, but a bitch during the winter months. Try doing it as I have. Time yourself walking from Old Weston Road/Davenport by Osler to Dundas and Dupont or by Keele and Dundas to see how long a walk is. That area is changing big time and only going to keep on changing where people will get into their car and drive in place of walking or using transit.

This has been raised from day one and keep getting no can do since then every time its been brought up. Its another example where pedestrians are 3rd class when they can't drive and a long bus ride with many transfers. Its another barrier for making things walk able and not using the car.

This area as well other areas are example where people trespass the rail corridors as there is no short cut for them in the first place.

A fair number loose their lives as well screw up service on the line for hours., even if they aren't hit. The last one was over by Islington Station where a chap hop the fence 1/4 a mile west of Islington from a condo complex to get cross CP tracks to TTC station. No short walking to get to TTC station from the north side, other than Islington or wait 30 minutes for a bus.

Unless you build concrete walls that are an eye sore, not going to stop people trespass rail corridors. Maybe seeing a train every 7.5 minute may help.

As for traffic, yes traffic levels weren't great, but like Toronto, we may do it at some future day because of cost. Look how long it took to deal with the Dufferin Jog. In the mean time, roads around them are gridlock.

 

[smallspy]

That great to say doing it during the warm weather, but a bitch during the winter months. Try doing it as I have. Time yourself walking from Old Weston Road/Davenport by Osler to Dundas and Dupont or by Keele and Dundas to see how long a walk is. That area is changing big time and only going to keep on changing where people will get into their car and drive in place of walking or using transit.

I have done it, quite literally hundreds and hundreds of times over the years, in all four seasons. It's really not a big deal to walk it.

Dan

 

[Jaye101]

The city’s plan includes extending Davenport west and north along the Georgetown sub to connect to Keele Street near Rogers. And also building an extension of Gunn’s from Weston Rd to the Davenport Extension.

Combine the traffic from the new connections, and the existing traffic coming southbound from Old Weston Road. The amount of traffic heading East on Davenport may overwhelm the existing infrastructure enough to eventually warrant a bridge south to Dundas.

It may not be worth the cost now but long term, a fully grade separated connection between these two neighbourhoods seems inevitable. Though it may come in the form of a grade separated Osler Street if that proves more cost effective.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Nothing is mentioned anywhere about adding a bypass streetcar track at St. Clair West Station. Both westbound and eastbound streetcars end up using the same tracks. Again the penny-pinchers at city hall is holding back funds that could improve streetcar service.

From link.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Nothing is mentioned anywhere about adding a bypass streetcar track at St. Clair West Station. Both westbound and eastbound streetcars end up using the same tracks. Again the penny-pinchers at city hall is holding back funds that could improve streetcar service.

View attachment 195687

From link.

They don't exactly use the same tracks. Streetcars heading west procede to the loading area at the north end of the St. Clair west loop (where they old load zone for both streetcars were), well eastbound streetcars stop at the old unloading platform and then bypass the westbound one.

 

[W. K. Lis]

They don't exactly use the same tracks. Streetcars heading west procede to the loading area at the north end of the St. Clair west loop (where they old load zone for both streetcars were), well eastbound streetcars stop at the old unloading platform and then bypass the westbound one.

In that scenario, any following streetcars would still have to wait till the old unloading platform is cleared.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

In that scenario, any following streetcars would still have to wait till the old unloading platform is cleared.

True but they usually tend to space them pretty well on St Clair, usually the westbound one comes in first makes a brief stop to check the switch is set and then heads to the platform. The eastbound one will usually follow behind it and then stop to unload and load before going around the westbound one.

 

[W. K. Lis]

True but they usually tend to space them pretty well on St Clair, usually the westbound one comes in first makes a brief stop to check the switch is set and then heads to the platform. The eastbound one will usually follow behind it and then stop to unload and load before going around the westbound one.

In theory. And the Earth is flat.

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