TTC: Flexity Streetcars Testing & Delivery (Bombardier)

[dowlingm]

The main issue for me is that the TTC commit to obtaining “damages cars” from Bombardier for the previous delays since now even after full delivery in 2019...ish they will not have 204 cars on property, so they need those extra cars, however many that turns out to be (my guess is 6-10). If some options cars get ordered too, great but there is no funding guarantee for those.

 

[Amare]

Why would you sue someone for acknowledging a fault and correcting it? You sue someone when they deny or hide a fault, and then stick you with the bill to correct it. The opposite has happened here.

Of course, you may not like what has happened. But that does not create the conditions for suing someone.

Very true, it's more of me just expressing my frustration with this company at this point. That plant in Mexico is just a mess.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

@jordanmkasla2009 , true. But my car has one segment. 67 vehicles for 19 weeks each is a total of 1273 weeks. Or 24.5 years of missing vehicle time. That is an incredibly huge amount of time.

once back are they going to have to go through 600km testing again? One would think so. That’s 40,000km of vehicle running and operator time if so. On the other hand, TTC have known since October and still entertaining the idea of exercising the options which may give a sense of how desperate BBD are to make a deal.

with the current rate of deliveries TTC could exercise the option now and never miss these 67 vehicles since more vehicles will be delivered at any given time than leave for La Pocatiere . If there wasn't an issue delivering the vehicles there probably would have been more of an impact to the fleet than 67 vehicles. TTC should negotiate the option up to 67 vehicles. maybe have them numbered 4400-4466 or whatever then have these defective vehicles renumbered before shipping them back since once they get back they are essentially (almost) brand new vehicles.

 

[jordanmkasla2009]

Very true, it's more of me just expressing my frustration with this company at this point. That plant in Mexico is just a mess.

It was only a mess because Bombardier were underpaying the welders they were training and then gawking in surprise as they left for higher paying jobs once certified.

 

[TransitBart]

That plant in Mexico is just a mess.

Nothing to do with streetcars or Bombardier. I lived and worked in Mexico for several years. The workforce can be capable and dedicated. And the same HR issues exist there that any manager deals with anywhere. It makes me sick to hear what President Trump has said about Mexicans and their country. The issue here is no doubt management, and is nothing inherently to do with the country. I am so upset at the baseless characterizations made by an ignorant fool, and their potential to influence the easily swayed.

**steps down from soapbox**

 

[steveintoronto]

This isn't something you can sue over. It is warrantied service and Bombardier has carried out in full it's legal obligations to alert the customer of discovered defects and devised a plan of action to remedy the defects.

You can sue for compensation for not supplying the product as spec'ed and the losses that entails. In the case of BBD, that may be a capped liability, I'm not sure, but I'm certainly sure you can sue until an agreed limit comes into effect.

I'm now wondering on the severe jerkiness under braking these vehicles display. My immediate thought was that either the calipers or electric breaking circuits were poorly adjusted or the brake sensors badly buffered, but indeed, it could be play in the couplings between sections.

I know that other cities with the orthodox original design have very smooth braking. It's so bad on some TO ones that standing up is next to impossible without being thrown around.

 

[Robert James]

Nothing to do with streetcars or Bombardier. I lived and worked in Mexico for several years. The workforce can be capable and dedicated. And the same HR issues exist there that any manager deals with anywhere. It makes me sick to hear what President Trump has said about Mexicans and their country. The issue here is no doubt management, and is nothing inherently to do with the country. I am so upset at the baseless characterizations made by an ignorant fool, and their potential to influence the easily swayed.

**steps down from soapbox**

Amen!

 

[nfitz]

I really hope the TTC can sue the living lights out of Bombardier. This is just asinine at this point.

One sues to recover damages.

In this case, Bombardier has already offered to pay for the repairs under warranty, for no charge.

What do you think they should sue for? Keep in mind, they've already sued for the maximum in damages permissible under the contract.

With a 19-week schedule planned, and the work continuing through 2022, sounds they have about 216 weeks to do 1273 weeks of work. That means only 6 at a time.

Really, the only possible additional ask from Bombardier, would be to send an extra 6 streetcars for free in 2019, so that TTC has 204 available at all times.

And if they were to do that - how is TTC even impacted, except for the drama.

 

[drum118]

With La Pocatiere doing the work and nothing on BBD books for TB after 2019 that I know of at this time, it looks like the end for the TB plant.

We can see now why 4401 got ship La Pocatiere for rebuilding. This will allow the plant to strip the car to see where the poor welds are and what is needed to happen to correct them. Train classes has started to learn how to take a car apart, fix the problem and put it back together.

This will allow La Pocatiere to go after Quebec City streetcar order if it happens.

Its time the city get off the pot and fund TTC to purchase the extra cars from someone else.

If TTC has all 204 cars here and using 15% spare ratio, that will allow TTC to have 171 ready for service daily, but still doesn't help to deal with pent-up demand for more service to met increase ridership. If you remove 6 cars from the spare ratio, it will still leave TTC with 25 cars as spare. Given the fact these cars are young, you could drop the spare ratio down to 15-20 cars.

At the end of the day, BBD has blow any chances of building more streetcars in NA over this mess.

 

[UD2]

the only mess is that the TTC will need to pay significantly more on streetcar orders going forward.

After the fiasco, Bombardier would nvr bid a price as allow as they had, and the next lowest price during the bid process was 40% more.

As much as we’d like to complain, I don’t think the TTC lost out too much on this deal vs the next best offer. Yes the delays did cost money, but certainly no where near 40% of the contract cost.

 

[Amare]

Nothing to do with streetcars or Bombardier

This issue has everything to do with Bombardier, in particular their past management. They were so in denial that there was anything was wrong, and they finally only acknowledged the problem when there was a near clean sweep in the upper management levels in North America. Theoretically had they acknowledged the problem earlier, the scope of the problem would not have been nearly as large as it is today.

 

[Richard White]

Honestly,

I am surprised the TTC has not demanded the work be completed in Ontario or Toronto given the travel time required

I wonder how bad the welds are though to incur 19 weeks of work

 

[dowlingm]

Honestly,

I am surprised the TTC has not demanded the work be completed in Ontario or Toronto given the travel time required

I wonder how bad the welds are though to incur 19 weeks of work

why is it in the TTC’s interest to demand that the remedial work be located in a particular region, delaying startup, rather than in a plant with capacity and experienced personnel? TB and Millhaven are busy.

 

[crs1026]

^Rewelding the frame likely requires stripping the cars right back close to bare bones. So they will have to be reassembled all over. There’s your 19 week cycle time. That creates a whole new quality challenge. Especially since everything is now worn a bit from service. We’ve all taken something apart to fix it and reassembled it....hey, there are three screws left over......

I’m curious about the mutual decision to keep building cars in the meanwhile. Can you imagine where we would be today if they had stopped production while they worked out the fix?

The best outcome I can see is a) get on with the fix and b) work out a generous deal on extra new cars as compensation.

- Paul

 

[DSC]

Honestly,

I am surprised the TTC has not demanded the work be completed in Ontario or Toronto given the travel time required

I wonder how bad the welds are though to incur 19 weeks of work

The TTC presumably wants the work done properly and as fast as possible. If BBD had decided that this meant sending them back to Mexico that's their choice. The work is supposed to take 19 weeks per car (I think they need to remove lots of electronics to get to the areas needing welding). The longer travel time to La Pocatière (as opposed to, say, BBD @ Kingston) is minimal and for all we know BBD will compensate the TTC for every day they are without a streetcar.