News   Apr 23, 2024
 9     0 
News   Apr 22, 2024
 821     0 
News   Apr 22, 2024
 284     0 

2018 Ontario Provincial Election Discussion

Of course, following the rules of governance is a non-starter - the alternatives is not merely bad, it is unimaginable. As to Horwath - I am not sure if expecting her to pull the nigh implausible is fair - or that she/the old left is truly the saviour. Maybe we need 4 years of BS to cleanse it out of our system.

AoD
There is a bright note from this election, a small but important one: The Greens are on the Ontario map, and not only their leader, but an eloquent and respected one. He got a surprising amount of acknowledgement from editorialists and journos. So a star will shine in the gloom, and although not having official status in the Legislature, his voice will be heard and have a platform.

I've wondered whether a coalition of the Greens with the Libs would allow that status, or would the marriage of convenience be too offensive to someone espousing the real Love of Nature?

Official Status has a lot of perks to it...
 
There is a bright note from this election, a small but important one: The Greens are on the Ontario map, and not only their leader, but an eloquent and respected one. He got a surprising amount of acknowledgement from editorialists and journos. So a star will shine in the gloom, and although not having official status in the Legislature, his voice will be heard and have a platform.

I've wondered whether a coalition of the Greens with the Libs would allow that status, or would the marriage of convenience be too offensive to someone espousing the real Love of Nature?

Official Status has a lot of perks to it...

I am less sanguine - in any election scenario, Greens tend to draw votes away from the traditional centre-left and not centre-right.

AoD
 
So can you finally set the record straight as to who you were voting for/supporting?
Yep. I voted for Suze Morrison, who I'm pleased to say won by a landslide. I wanted a strong NDP win in this election.

I think you confuse the lesson with the teacher. I may not agree with what happened, but my assessment is as I see it.
 
There are indeed lessons to be learned here, though I don't think they are those the Admiral put forth, at least not as he put them forth.

I do think there is a lesson for progressives in what can make populism, or sometimes just politics work.

Seem accessible, speak in short, clear sentences, appear to be on the side of the voter.

I point that out and one might waver between thinking I'm suggesting the obvious to wondering how one side met that offer and the other didn't. Or might question whether I've lost my appetite for nuance.

Let me start by saying I love nuance and see it as intelligent and honest; but I'm a policy wonk who reads every work of every platform including parties unlikely to gain my vote.

I am self-aware enough to realize this is not where most people are at. Even most UT'ers don't actually read a 90-page platform, and its budget, even for their preferred party.

Its always important to be able to reach people, a majoirty of people frankly who will only ever judge on promises that make headlines or soundbites.

That doesn't mean a party shouldn't write a 90-page platform or have nuance and detail where appropriate. It does mean to many people a convoluted sentence (like the kind I often write) is just too much trouble to finish reading.

Get to the point already.

There is also a need to know where the public mood is at. When Ms Horvath chose to counter 'buck a beer' with 'we're going to suspend the rollout of beer to supermarkets' that was a terrible tactical call.

Do I think it cost the NDP the election? Probably not, but it probably did shave a point or two.

There were virtually no votes to be gained in her position, but there were votes to be lost. Once even the 'Liberal' media (ie The Star) have gotten on the hobby horse of 'The Beer Store must go'. The issue is decided.

That single issue along w/some other claptrap on beer/gas prices speak to the need to understand the desire for consumer choice but also a resentfulness towards what may feel like a 'hectoring' nanny state.

I'll afford an example from a neighbour who voted PC (my area went NDP) She was on about her hatred of bike lanes, obvious not a provincial issue, but she lumped then in with renewable energy, green bins and beer prices as 'those Liberals want to tell me what to do'.

That I think she was wrong ,on most or all of the substance, is beside the point. Its understanding this type of person is one you have to reach, at least in some measure.

You have to balance on the one hand, something that will appeal to them, but also be sure not to infuriate them w/a holier-than-thou sense.

I really would like Liberals and NDP'ers in the strategy rooms to get that.

There needs to be some excitement for your base; but you have to reach beyond as well, and that isn't merely substance, its style.
 
There are indeed lessons to be learned here, though I don't think they are those the Admiral put forth, at least not as he put them forth.

I do think there is a lesson for progressives in what can make populism, or sometimes just politics work.

Seem accessible, speak in short, clear sentences, appear to be on the side of the voter.

I point that out and one might waver between thinking I'm suggesting the obvious to wondering how one side met that offer and the other didn't. Or might question whether I've lost my appetite for nuance.

Let me start by saying I love nuance and see it as intelligent and honest; but I'm a policy wonk who reads every work of every platform including parties unlikely to gain my vote.

I am self-aware enough to realize this is not where most people are at. Even most UT'ers don't actually read a 90-page platform, and its budget, even for their preferred party.

Its always important to be able to reach people, a majoirty of people frankly who will only ever judge on promises that make headlines or soundbites.

That doesn't mean a party shouldn't write a 90-page platform or have nuance and detail where appropriate. It does mean to many people a convoluted sentence (like the kind I often write) is just too much trouble to finish reading.

Get to the point already.

There is also a need to know where the public mood is at. When Ms Horvath chose to counter 'buck a beer' with 'we're going to suspend the rollout of beer to supermarkets' that was a terrible tactical call.

Do I think it cost the NDP the election? Probably not, but it probably did shave a point or two.

There were virtually no votes to be gained in her position, but there were votes to be lost. Once even the 'Liberal' media (ie The Star) have gotten on the hobby horse of 'The Beer Store must go'. The issue is decided.

That single issue along w/some other claptrap on beer/gas prices speak to the need to understand the desire for consumer choice but also a resentfulness towards what may feel like a 'hectoring' nanny state.

I'll afford an example from a neighbour who voted PC (my area went NDP) She was on about her hatred of bike lanes, obvious not a provincial issue, but she lumped then in with renewable energy, green bins and beer prices as 'those Liberals want to tell me what to do'.

That I think she was wrong ,on most or all of the substance, is beside the point. Its understanding this type of person is one you have to reach, at least in some measure.

You have to balance on the one hand, something that will appeal to them, but also be sure not to infuriate them w/a holier-than-thou sense.

I really would like Liberals and NDP'ers in the strategy rooms to get that.

There needs to be some excitement for your base; but you have to reach beyond as well, and that isn't merely substance, its style.

Lessons learned: do not underestimate the right wing, nor take their grievances for granted. It's not a healthy strategy claiming 60% of the population by default rejects the Tories and focusing just on the Left. A lot of alienated Liberals, myself included, found a new home in the Blue camp this time around because they spoke on issues that mattered to me. That's why they won. Focusing so hard on the leader when the backbench was formidable blinded critics from seeing what constituents were witnessing at grassroots interactions with local candidates. I think the province is going to be alright with them at the helm, but I will be sure to join the critical fray if they get out of line.
 
^ @Northern Light: Very good post, we're going to be needing more debriefings like that to at least settle the stomach, if not the intellect. You put a good perspective on Horwath's performance/position, and in all fairness, she was thrust into a role very unexpected.
There were virtually no votes to be gained in her position, but there were votes to be lost.
What really didn't help is that she has no *charisma*...a term accredited to Trudeau Snr's reign (falsely or otherwise) and as much as I'm no fan of Ford, she was no more exciting than he was. It really didn't bode well. The one who made most sense, Schreiner besides (a whole wonderful topic in itself, he gives me hope) was Wynne. I feel awful in not only calling for her head months back, but seeing it being inevitable. The lady was the only real politician among the Three Stooges.

Trying to put a brave face on this, it's like a massive family argument, sometimes it's best to let the pus drain and the wounds will eventually heal.
 
I think the province is going to be alright with them at the helm, but I will be sure to join the critical fray if they get out of line.
Can we count you as still being amongst the majority in wishing for a 'Choice at Centre'? I don't know if the Libs can ever regain that ground, or even if ideologically, morally.

There's a massive hole at Centre...and I take a lot of the rationale for Horwath "reclaiming her party's natural ground" as getting her the vote as baseless. Any party that had staked out Centre would have won if they were the only ones.

It might be time for the Libs to dissolve as is, and I think the Cons will be facing this too in four years, and Ontario presented with a blank canvas to start again. That may be emotional on my part, history certainly shows this rout isn't as unique as some claim, and I'm still a bit shell shocked, not from the outcome alone, but from the events leading up to it. The trainwreck happened in slow motion.

On a related but interesting aside, anyone following The Agenda saw a very bright star emerge in the stunningly beautiful and bright Erin Kelly's "Polly" AI model for predicting poll outcomes.
Erin Kelly, CPA,CMA - President and CEO - Advanced Symbolics

Usually someone so effusive and attractive tends to behave subjectively (pardon my presumption) due to the easy ride on those assets, but she was incredibly objective and analytical throughout, and incredibly prescient.

She just boosted her career in multiples. But of course, she could have predicted that...
 
The PC Scarborough Guildwood cop candidate lost by 85 votes... you gotta think if he wasn't such an idiot he'd probably be MPP right now.

Oh, and is it safe to say the new Liberal leader is Michael Couteau or Mitzie Hunter?
 
The Tories didnt do anything to get to Wynne that's the thing. They could've had a rubber duck as their candidate, and as long as Wynne was running in the election they would have still came in 1st or 2nd and the Liberals would end up losing. Wynne was just that unpopular it was over for her from the moment she decided not to resign before the campaign started.
You sweet summer child. The reason everyone apparently thinks Wynne is the devil is because the Tories have been running an anti-Wynne campaign for the last five years. Why is “gas plant!” such a strong narrative after a decade?

The PCs are in permanent election mode. By the time election rolled around public opinion was set. If the Libs or NDP want to win in four years they have to start knocking Ford down today, because the PCs are going to start running the “Ford saved you from doom” narrative.
 
Lessons learned: do not underestimate the right wing, nor take their grievances for granted. It's not a healthy strategy claiming 60% of the population by default rejects the Tories and focusing just on the Left. A lot of alienated Liberals, myself included, found a new home in the Blue camp this time around because they spoke on issues that mattered to me. That's why they won. Focusing so hard on the leader when the backbench was formidable blinded critics from seeing what constituents were witnessing at grassroots interactions with local candidates. I think the province is going to be alright with them at the helm, but I will be sure to join the critical fray if they get out of line.
Is it not ironic that the people who voted for Dougie want change but support an ideology that prohibits it's existence.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch.
 
There are indeed lessons to be learned here, though I don't think they are those the Admiral put forth, at least not as he put them forth.

I do think there is a lesson for progressives in what can make populism, or sometimes just politics work.

Seem accessible, speak in short, clear sentences, appear to be on the side of the voter.

I point that out and one might waver between thinking I'm suggesting the obvious to wondering how one side met that offer and the other didn't. Or might question whether I've lost my appetite for nuance.

Let me start by saying I love nuance and see it as intelligent and honest; but I'm a policy wonk who reads every work of every platform including parties unlikely to gain my vote.

I am self-aware enough to realize this is not where most people are at. Even most UT'ers don't actually read a 90-page platform, and its budget, even for their preferred party.

Its always important to be able to reach people, a majoirty of people frankly who will only ever judge on promises that make headlines or soundbites.

That doesn't mean a party shouldn't write a 90-page platform or have nuance and detail where appropriate. It does mean to many people a convoluted sentence (like the kind I often write) is just too much trouble to finish reading.

Get to the point already.

There is also a need to know where the public mood is at. When Ms Horvath chose to counter 'buck a beer' with 'we're going to suspend the rollout of beer to supermarkets' that was a terrible tactical call.

Do I think it cost the NDP the election? Probably not, but it probably did shave a point or two.

There were virtually no votes to be gained in her position, but there were votes to be lost. Once even the 'Liberal' media (ie The Star) have gotten on the hobby horse of 'The Beer Store must go'. The issue is decided.

That single issue along w/some other claptrap on beer/gas prices speak to the need to understand the desire for consumer choice but also a resentfulness towards what may feel like a 'hectoring' nanny state.

I'll afford an example from a neighbour who voted PC (my area went NDP) She was on about her hatred of bike lanes, obvious not a provincial issue, but she lumped then in with renewable energy, green bins and beer prices as 'those Liberals want to tell me what to do'.

That I think she was wrong ,on most or all of the substance, is beside the point. Its understanding this type of person is one you have to reach, at least in some measure.

You have to balance on the one hand, something that will appeal to them, but also be sure not to infuriate them w/a holier-than-thou sense.

I really would like Liberals and NDP'ers in the strategy rooms to get that.

There needs to be some excitement for your base; but you have to reach beyond as well, and that isn't merely substance, its style.
This campaign can teach us very little.

Basically, if you run a terrible government, at some point you will be defeated. The longer the defeat is delayed, the harder the fall. By all rights the Liberals should have lost in 1007, 2011, 2014. Each time the PC's didn't run the best campaign and peoples moods changed for the vote. Immediately thereafter, they regretted the choice of Liberal.
 
^ @Northern Light: Very good post, we're going to be needing more debriefings like that to at least settle the stomach, if not the intellect. You put a good perspective on Horwath's performance/position, and in all fairness, she was thrust into a role very unexpected.
What really didn't help is that she has no *charisma*...a term accredited to Trudeau Snr's reign (falsely or otherwise) and as much as I'm no fan of Ford, she was no more exciting than he was. It really didn't bode well. The one who made most sense, Schreiner besides (a whole wonderful topic in itself, he gives me hope) was Wynne. I feel awful in not only calling for her head months back, but seeing it being inevitable. The lady was the only real politician among the Three Stooges.

Trying to put a brave face on this, it's like a massive family argument, sometimes it's best to let the pus drain and the wounds will eventually heal.
This is the turd Social Conservative government that Toronto has had to and will deal with such regressives.
 
Lessons learned: do not underestimate the right wing, nor take their grievances for granted. It's not a healthy strategy claiming 60% of the population by default rejects the Tories and focusing just on the Left. A lot of alienated Liberals, myself included, found a new home in the Blue camp this time around because they spoke on issues that mattered to me. That's why they won. Focusing so hard on the leader when the backbench was formidable blinded critics from seeing what constituents were witnessing at grassroots interactions with local candidates. I think the province is going to be alright with them at the helm, but I will be sure to join the critical fray if they get out of line.

Underestimate?

This is the first time they've formed government in 15 years lol.

The PC Party will have to be firmly in the centre (like the Liberals generally are) if they want any long term success.
 
Underestimate?

This is the first time they've formed government in 15 years lol.

The PC Party will have to be firmly in the centre (like the Liberals generally are) if they want any long term success.
In the centre OR like the Liberals?
Maybe you are referring to a different generation of Liberals (i.e. maybe Chretien).
 

Back
Top