News   May 06, 2024
 332     0 
News   May 06, 2024
 477     0 
News   May 06, 2024
 1.3K     1 

King Street (Streetcar Transit Priority)

Some of these restaurants may do take out orders using those new apps and it is really hard for a car to just pull in, grab an order, and go.

Although things would still be good for bike or pedestrian carriers.
 
Respectfully, there is no sense in trying to play down the article or discredit its content just because it is contrary to what one would like to hear.

It's just mathematical. There has been a drop, and it coincides with the pilot — it is real.

Posting this, it was hoped, would stir up possible – and creative – solutions or compromises to make this project more perfect, not to lead to the tired, old bipolarized discussions in which people immediately divide themselves neatly and simplistically into pro- and anti- camps.

One can even reach a conclusion whereby nothing else can be done and concede that businesses simply have to cope with such a side effect for the greater good, or as part of a new paradigm.

But please, let us not just sweep this under the carpet. That's deeply uncool.


Imagine media coverage where effected businesses on Bloor reported huge increases in sales coinciding with the bike lane installation. If one sees oneself spreading and sharing such news and articles enthusiastically, then one must also deal with opposite findings... if one is interested in being a fair and balanced player free of ideology and looking to be part of the solution... whatever it may manifest itself to be.
 
Respectfully, there is no sense in trying to play down the article or discredit its content just because it is contrary to what one would like to hear.

It's just mathematical. There has been a drop, and it coincides with the pilot — it is real.

Posting this, it was hoped, would stir up possible – and creative – solutions or compromises to make this project more perfect, not to lead to the tired, old bipolarized discussions in which people immediately divide themselves neatly and simplistically into pro- and anti- camps.

One can even reach a conclusion whereby nothing else can be done and concede that businesses simply have to cope with such a side effect for the greater good, or as part of a new paradigm.

But please, let us not just sweep this under the carpet. That's deeply uncool.


Imagine media coverage where effected businesses on Bloor reported huge increases in sales coinciding with the bike lane installation. If one sees oneself spreading and sharing such news and articles enthusiastically, then one must also deal with opposite findings... if one is interested in being a fair and balanced player free of ideology and looking to be part of the solution... whatever it may manifest itself to be.

Did they compare king to other comparable streets? It's been colder than usual, for one. Many retailers not on King have been seeing bigger downturns than usual this year. What was their sampling methodology? What were the questions asked? How can they be sure the people, i.e. business owners, answering the surveys were being honest--maybe they personally drive, and are misrepresenting business downturns because they're personally unhappy?

Have the retailers provided Moneris data or similar quantitative sources? No. There's a big one.
 
Good evening,

Just as I would like to see media articles with positive content about the pilot, I should also be open to ones that remind me of the negatives, if any. It's not right for me to pretend that everything is fine and ignore contrary opinions.


https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...n-finds-almost-all-report-sales-are-down.html

This is not a credible study. A group that’s against the pilot emailed businesses asking whether the pilot has hurt their business and 97% of them who replied said “yes”.

That’s like a dictator running for “re-election” and “winning” with 97% of the vote. Gotta leave a small percentage against.
 
There appears to be some major road construction on the far side. It’s been going on for about a week and escalating every time I walk by. There was a lot of machinery on site last night. Looks temporary, otherwise they would have moved the ramp to the near side.

The stop is back on the far side again. I found out the hard way. It was on the east corner when I went out earlier. On the way back, I came out of the subway and there were about a dozen people waiting on that east corner. The streetcar was taking forever and we were all shivering cold. Then I finally spotted a streetcar coming and stepped on to the road to board. But it sped right through leaving everybody looking at the pole where the sign for a temporary stop had been. It was gone. It must’ve just changed, maybe even while we were waiting. There was a construction crew there. Almost all of us missed the streetcar and had to wait another several minutes for the next one.
 
What it all comes down to is lack of foresight and planning...*especially as that relates to traffic light priority!* I can hear the defence already: "We didn't have the budget to do this correctly"...and it would be correct.

What in hell is Council and the City thinking? Just throw some crumbs to the King Korridor while celebrating the Spadina subway fiasco with free fare at the cost of multiples of the million for the King Korridor Project?

It would not be correct at all. The current lack of signal priority has nothing to do with budget or foresight - the money has already been spent to update the priority system for the pilot. The system was pre-existing at at 8 out of 12 signals in the pilot area (as indicated in the City's open data), and in many places you can see the new streetcar detectors that were installed just past the new far-side stops.
 
Last edited:
Lemme get this straight. There were what - three parking spots in front of Fred's? And now they are gone. And business has plunged? One less table of customers per parking spot per hour? Or were those parking spots turning over every five minutes? Is Fred's now a takeout joint?

I can understand cab drivers saying, "Oooh, it's just too hard to get there" the first time a customer asks to go there. It will take cabbies a little while to figure out which sidestreet to take to each well known destination. But they likely knew that even before the pilot, to get off King Street when it was backed up.

Sorry, not buying the doom and gloom.

- Paul

I'm buying a bit of it. There's a lot of people at their wit's end when it comes to commuting by car (or transit) into, out of, and across the core. Making it more complicated, slower, congested, disjointed - even if just perceived as such - can very well be the straw that broke the camel's back for many. Doesn't mean they parked literally out front of a locale (many probably parked somewhere nearby), just that they don't want to bring the car into the core for something they used to do. Suddenly putting in no through traffic on a major corridor is a fairly big deal.

Let’s not forget that while there are indeed numerous parking options around King Street, and these businesses aren’t relying on just those two or three spots immediately in front of their location, getting to those parking spots has become more difficult with no through-traffic.

Drivers need time to figure out the alternate routes, which were already congested, and I’m sure many people are throwing up their hands and saying “screw it, I’ll just go somewhere else in the city.”

I live up in Sudbury. I visit the GTA on average about once every 2 months. I have a sister who lives in Downtown Toronto. Unless I am spending the night, or unless she needs to do some errands (she doesn't own a vehicle) I park at a subway station and take transit. She lives on a street car line.

Never have we ever not gone anywhere due to parking. I always can find parking, even if it is a bit of a walk. Never have we avoided going somewhere because of transit.

Some people are just too entitled, and for them, I have no sympathies.
 
Let’s not forget that while there are indeed numerous parking options around King Street, and these businesses aren’t relying on just those two or three spots immediately in front of their location, getting to those parking spots has become more difficult with no through-traffic.

Drivers need time to figure out the alternate routes, which were already congested, and I’m sure many people are throwing up their hands and saying “screw it, I’ll just go somewhere else in the city.”

There is an alleyway behind Fred's Not Here. For (1) delivery speed and (2) dining room patrons comfort the delivery guys should be arriving by the back door.
 
Did they compare king to other comparable streets? It's been colder than usual, for one. Many retailers not on King have been seeing bigger downturns than usual this year. What was their sampling methodology? What were the questions asked? How can they be sure the people, i.e. business owners, answering the surveys were being honest--maybe they personally drive, and are misrepresenting business downturns because they're personally unhappy?

Have the retailers provided Moneris data or similar quantitative sources? No. There's a big one.

I've heard the City is using Moneris data to analyse the King St Pilot. Also, all of what you said may be true, and it may also be true that retailers are experiencing a downturn that happens to coincide with the Pilot introduction. It doesn't mean retailers are full of bologna. If the project was actually bringing in more money, I've yet to meet a business owner or retailer who is opposed to making more money, so I'm completely dumbfounded why so many on here seem to think businesses are arbitrarily or intentionally trying to ruin the project because they love cars...

The fact is we don't really know for sure right now, and it will take some time to evaluate it. However, it does not mean that we should not be listening to these businesses. Always question the data, but you also have to remove impropriety when evaluating the output.
 
I can understand cab drivers saying, "Oooh, it's just too hard to get there" the first time a customer asks to go there. It will take cabbies a little while to figure out which sidestreet to take to each well known destination. But they likely knew that even before the pilot, to get off King Street when it was backed up.

Sorry, not buying the doom and gloom.

- Paul

Plus google maps has already figured it out and programmed into route directions. And Cabbies who's whole life is based on driving around Toronto haven't spent the time to figure it out? Laziness. If new rules come out at work and I don't bother learning i'd be fired.

Not buying it either.
 
One thing I think they should try during the pilot is to allow Taxis to use King St at all times of the day, they pay for a medallion, if there's too many using it during the day could be reduced by even and odd license plates numbers... and it's one way to introduce a few more cars to the street.
 
This is not a credible study. A group that’s against the pilot emailed businesses asking whether the pilot has hurt their business and 97% of them who replied said “yes”.

That’s like a dictator running for “re-election” and “winning” with 97% of the vote. Gotta leave a small percentage against.

I've seen entire capital works and EA projects proceed on less data than this survey. I'm not saying you're wrong, but simply discounting the data because it asked a subject question would lead to any survey you typically see during a transportation study being discounted. They are inherently going to be skewed. I still think you have to consider the results of this data and dig to see if there's any truth behind it.
 
It would not be correct at all. The current lack of signal priority has nothing to do with budget or foresight - the money has already been spent to update the priority system for the pilot. The system was pre-existing at at 8 out of 12 signals in the pilot area (as indicated in the City's open data), and in many places you can see the new streetcar detectors that were installed just past the new far-side stops.
I'm aware of the present status quo as we discussed a month or so ago. It is clearly not "priority" in terms of what could be achieved. For a start, as we and others have discussed, there's no signals or phase for streetcar only.

I accessed your link, but it makes nothing any clearer on the issue, I'll continue trying. There's very little showing by Googling, I'll keep trying, but for now, I found only these references:
[...]
This shift is expected to cut the number of non-transit vehicles on the road by at least half. Where will they go? Barbara Gray, general manager of the city's transportation services department, said that there is capacity on parallel routes such as Richmond Street and Adelaide Street to absorb vehicles that had been using King.

Movement on those other roads can be facilitated by fiddling with the traffic-signal timing, a process that is expected to continue throughout the pilot.

The presence of those parallel routes explains the relatively modest scope of the pilot project. Making the changes to King only between Bathurst Street and Jarvis Street – barely 2.5 kilometres – means that people catching the streetcar at, for example, Liberty Village will continue to make the first part of their trip in mixed traffic. But restricting the pilot to that area also means that drivers have lots of options other than King. [...]
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...d-transit-live-up-to-itsname/article34976015/

[...]
Mr. Tory says the city has tried all sorts of things to make the King car move better: introducing all-door boarding on streetcars to get people on and off faster; limiting left turns by cars that stall the streetcars behind; upgrading traffic signals. It still trundles along at a stately pace. It is time to do something bolder. "In a 21st-century city," he told the executive committee, "we simply have to be prepared to try things to move us off the status quo."
[...]
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...idor-on-torontos-king-street/article35404374/

[...]
Another change that will require an adjustment period are the changes in signal phasing at many of the intersections within the Pilot Project area. New protected right turn phases have been added to the cycles, meaning that the pedestrian signals that used to switch to 'walk' a few seconds after the opposing traffic's light turned red now have a small delay built in. Despite this new protected right turn phase, many pedestrians are simply ignoring the fact that the 'walk' sign hasn't activated yet and begin crossing the intersection anyway, eliminating the ability for vehicles to make a protected right turn off of King. Like with drivers, this new timing will require a bit of adjustment for pedestrians as well.

With this being a Pilot Project, the TTC and the City have already stated that they plan to make adjustments and improvements to both the physical infrastructure and the vehicle/traffic signal timing as the project moves along.[...]
http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2017/11/king-street-transit-pilot-full-swing

So I ask, if my critique is so off-base, where is the evidence to contradict it? Why is there no apparent *upgrade* of the transit priority signalling to a standard done in many other cities?

There may indeed be 'new sensors' installed in some locations along King. What is the system status and mode of operation? Holding green for a few seconds to allow one streetcar at a time to make it through the intersection? Is that logic fixed in terms of not having an algorithm fed by other factors?

Bunching, as I found out all too easily riding the 504 at *Noon!* yesterday, is still rampant according to those I spoke with on the streetcar.

Clearly that indicates a system, transit corridor or not, that is operating far from optimally. And there appeared to be no assistance offered by priority in the intersection signals. I stood at the front of the streetcar...it was so jammed...a seat only became available much later. The car was stopped at many traffic lights.

Surely Toronto can do better than this?

Any clear and detailed reference on the TTC's having a distinct transit signal priority most appreciated. I don't see how this project can ever be declared representative of what can be achieved without them.

Already forces are marshalling to defeat this. And the City plods along like the $1M+ cost of this will buy them success.

Addendum: Cnclr Cressy has an opinion piece in today's TorStar:
[...]
In many world class cities such a move wouldn’t be seen as bold. Frankly, many cities implemented such changes more than a decade ago. But, this is Toronto. Radical incrementalism is our way.

The early results of the pilot show quick improvements so far. The reliability of streetcar travel times has improved, which means people spend less time waiting in the cold wondering when their streetcar will arrive. Average streetcar travel times have decreased by as much as 2.6 minutes during rush hour. And average vehicle travel times on adjacent streets have been barely impacted.

That’s not to say that everything is perfect. For many, the adjustment period has led to confusion and traffic tickets. The fact that we launched during the cold winter season has left a feeling of emptiness on the street before the patios reopen. And, far too many businesses — my own local constituents — have expressed concerns.

However, as a pilot project we are able to test, measure and refine as we go. Already we’re making changes. King St. is open for business and the city is rolling out campaigns to promote local business, as well as new street and pop-up festivals to bring people to King. Traffic signal changes and other tweaks are coming to speed up streetcars and vehicular movement on adjacent streets. And, we’re not done yet. [...]
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/contributors/2017/12/20/no-going-back-on-king-st-makeover.html

"Traffic signal changes and other tweaks are coming". I certainly hope so. He puts it in the future tense, not the present or past. So I'm very encouraged to see that at least someone at Council realizes the corridor is no longer strangled, just still unable to breath properly.

And signals are going to need more than a "tweak". They're going to need serious investment...*whether this project continues or not!*. So why is Council living in a dream? The TTC lost more money, multiples more, on running free for the opening of the Spadina Extension than Council has budgeted for the King Korridor Pilot.
 
Last edited:
If the project was actually bringing in more money, I've yet to meet a business owner or retailer who is opposed to making more money, so I'm completely dumbfounded why so many on here seem to think businesses are arbitrarily or intentionally trying to ruin the project because they love cars...

Because the businesses on Bloor Street did the exact same thing when bike lanes were introduced, and it was proven entirely false.

Business owners are scared of change, and many (most?) like the convenience of a car dominated street in front of their establishment, whether or not they realize or admit it.

Personally, I think any downturn in business is a result of the dramatic change in weather we experienced around the same time.
 

Back
Top