TheTigerMaster
Superstar
If the Transit City EA is to be believed (and I’m not sure it is), the airport connection will generate an insignificant amount of ridership. We’ll see what revised 2018 projections say.
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If the Transit City EA is to be believed (and I’m not sure it is), the airport connection will generate an insignificant amount of ridership. We’ll see what revised 2018 projections say.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Famous last words!
robmausser
Senior Member
They don't want to have overpasses at the Eglinton West/Martin Grove intersection because of the hydro tower cables. Can't they raise the cables up higher on higher towers? Should be cheaper than concrete.
From link.
View attachment 128109
If they want to be creative, they can go more fancy with the towers.
It would be cheaper to lower the road. Something they didnt even research. Dumb.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
Likely when they rebuilt the 427/27/Eglinton intersection, they'll rubber stamp putting the LRT below grade. Otherwise, there is no cents available.
KevinT
Active Member
If they want to be creative, they can go more fancy with the towers.
Or, to use an example that actually exists:
Allandale25
Senior Member
Latest statement/opinion by the Etobicoke Centre MPP which was just emailed out:
"Dear Friends,
As you may know, last Monday staff from the City of Toronto held a consultation regarding the proposed Eglinton West LRT.
Thank you to all those who were able to attend.
Having you in attendance was important, because it ensured that your voice was heard by City of Toronto staff regarding this project.
Since this project was proposed, I have been advocating that the LRT must be tunnelled. I repeated this at the meeting on Monday night.
For those of you who were unable to attend, here is what we discussed:
If you share the concerns that we have about the LRT project, you can take action.
1. Before the City's Executive Committee meets on November 28, you can write to Mayor John Tory letting him know that you support our position that the LRT should be tunnelled and share our concerns about the design for the Eglinton West LRT.
Mayor John Tory
Email: Mayor_Tory@toronto.ca
2. You can write to us letting us know that you support our position, which will help us to advocate on your behalf.
Yvan Baker, Member of Provincial Parliament, Etobicoke Centre
Email: ybaker.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org
Councillor Stephen Holyday, Ward 3, Etobicoke Centre
Email: Councillor_Holyday@toronto.ca
Councillor John Campbell, Ward 4, Etobicoke Centre
Email: Councillor_Campbell@toronto.ca
To read more about our advocacy to tunnel the Eglinton LRT, see below for the latest update.
If you have any questions or concerns, please call my office at 416-234-2800 or email us at ybaker.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org.
Early last year Mayor John Tory announced that he would no longer consider heavy rail on Eglinton Avenue as part of SmartTrack, and instead, would proceed with an LRT (light rail transit) from Mount Dennis to Pearson Airport. The plan originally proposed for the project was an LRT that would run along the middle of Eglinton Avenue on the surface of the road.
I believe that an LRT down the middle of Eglinton would be unacceptable and I have been fighting on your behalf, along with our local city councillors John Campbell and Stephen Holyday, to tunnel the LRT.
Tunnelling the LRT makes sense for many reasons.
I have also met on multiple occasions with the Premier, Mayor John Tory, and Minister Del Duca to advocate for tunnelling.
I am hopeful that City staff will analyze the traffic impact and study the business case for all the available options, including tunnelling the LRT from Scarlett to Martin Grove. This is important to me because it will enable City Council to make its next decision on how to build the LRT using all the facts and all the options.
Next steps are for City staff to produce a “Business Case Update” to Toronto City Council. I have once again asked Mayor Tory and Minister Del Duca to ensure that the City of Toronto and Metrolinx perform a full business case and traffic impact analysis for all LRT options in this report, including tunnelling the LRT from Scarlett to Martin Grove.
I commit to you that I will continue to do all I can to ensure the City of Toronto tunnels the Eglinton LRT."
"Dear Friends,
As you may know, last Monday staff from the City of Toronto held a consultation regarding the proposed Eglinton West LRT.
Thank you to all those who were able to attend.
Having you in attendance was important, because it ensured that your voice was heard by City of Toronto staff regarding this project.
Since this project was proposed, I have been advocating that the LRT must be tunnelled. I repeated this at the meeting on Monday night.
For those of you who were unable to attend, here is what we discussed:
- I made it clear that Councillor Stephen Holyday, Councillor John Campbell and I believe that the Eglinton LRT must be tunnelled, and that we have been advocating for a tunnelled LRT.
- I explained that this option would be best for drivers, transit riders, taxpayers and for the community.
- At the meeting, it was clear that City of Toronto staff had not studied tunnelling as I, Councillors Holyday and Campbell and our community have repeatedly asked.
- At the meeting, community members and I expressed that our desire for a tunnelled LRT has been clear since this project was proposed, and that we have repeatedly asked that City of Toronto staff properly study the option of tunnelling the LRT.
- What City of Toronto staff actually studied was the option of building the LRT along the road or along the road for almost the entire route with a single grade separation (one tunnel or bridge) at one intersection along the route. In other words, they studied the option of grade-separating only once at either Martin Grove, Kipling, Islington, Royal York or Scarlett.
- Staff have not studied tunnelling all the way along the route or tunnelling all five major intersections along the route.
- Where they did study grade separations, staff in some cases chose to study elevated grade separations (bridges) instead of tunnelling.
- I also believe that the City of Toronto staff's methodology is flawed:
- When assessing the merits of various options, City Staff put a lot of weight on certain criteria such as whether transit riders will need to climb stairs and put little to no emphasis on factors that are far more important such as:
- The impact on traffic or travel time: This was given very little, if any consideration. The disrupted traffic from at-grade infrastructure, 3-phase signals and elimination of left turns would increase gridlock along Eglinton substantially. Conversely, tunnelling would dramatically reduce travel time for transit riders and drivers.
- The impact of traffic infiltration into local communities was not considered.
- The resulting impact on safety along the corridor was not considered.
- Even when using the criteria chosen by the City, their analysis still makes no sense.
- For example, under their 'Experience,' 'Health' and 'Healthy Neighbourhoods' criteria staff concluded that tunnelling would be worse than building at-grade. This makes little sense as everyone knows that the transit rider and driver experience and the impact on community in terms of health would all be better if the LRT is tunnelled.
If you share the concerns that we have about the LRT project, you can take action.
1. Before the City's Executive Committee meets on November 28, you can write to Mayor John Tory letting him know that you support our position that the LRT should be tunnelled and share our concerns about the design for the Eglinton West LRT.
Mayor John Tory
Email: Mayor_Tory@toronto.ca
2. You can write to us letting us know that you support our position, which will help us to advocate on your behalf.
Yvan Baker, Member of Provincial Parliament, Etobicoke Centre
Email: ybaker.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org
Councillor Stephen Holyday, Ward 3, Etobicoke Centre
Email: Councillor_Holyday@toronto.ca
Councillor John Campbell, Ward 4, Etobicoke Centre
Email: Councillor_Campbell@toronto.ca
To read more about our advocacy to tunnel the Eglinton LRT, see below for the latest update.
If you have any questions or concerns, please call my office at 416-234-2800 or email us at ybaker.mpp.co@liberal.ola.org.
Early last year Mayor John Tory announced that he would no longer consider heavy rail on Eglinton Avenue as part of SmartTrack, and instead, would proceed with an LRT (light rail transit) from Mount Dennis to Pearson Airport. The plan originally proposed for the project was an LRT that would run along the middle of Eglinton Avenue on the surface of the road.
I believe that an LRT down the middle of Eglinton would be unacceptable and I have been fighting on your behalf, along with our local city councillors John Campbell and Stephen Holyday, to tunnel the LRT.
Tunnelling the LRT makes sense for many reasons.
- Tunnelling the LRT is better for drivers. Eglinton Avenue is already gridlocked. It is a major artery in Etobicoke. An at-grade, (meaning on the surface of the road) LRT would make traffic worse.
- Tunnelling the LRT is better for transit riders. We need to get Toronto moving. The right LRT plan will get people where they need to go when they need to be there. A tunnelled LRT would not be slowed by traffic or stop lights and move more quickly.
- Tunnelling the LRT is better for taxpayers. To keep Etobicoke's economy growing, we need to keep Eglinton moving. Tunnelling the LRT would keep people, goods, and services flowing between Toronto, Pearson Airport, Mississauga and the entire region. Tunnelling would also reduce long-term maintenance and upkeep costs.
- Tunnelling the LRT is safer for Etobicoke. Eglinton Avenue is gridlocked. The traffic spills over on local residential streets used by commuters as a shortcut. A tunnelled LRT would reduce safety concerns.
I have also met on multiple occasions with the Premier, Mayor John Tory, and Minister Del Duca to advocate for tunnelling.
I am hopeful that City staff will analyze the traffic impact and study the business case for all the available options, including tunnelling the LRT from Scarlett to Martin Grove. This is important to me because it will enable City Council to make its next decision on how to build the LRT using all the facts and all the options.
Next steps are for City staff to produce a “Business Case Update” to Toronto City Council. I have once again asked Mayor Tory and Minister Del Duca to ensure that the City of Toronto and Metrolinx perform a full business case and traffic impact analysis for all LRT options in this report, including tunnelling the LRT from Scarlett to Martin Grove.
I commit to you that I will continue to do all I can to ensure the City of Toronto tunnels the Eglinton LRT."
OneCity
Senior Member
Reads just like Ford speech without the dumbed down slogans and "folks" at the start of every bullet
Many reasonable points but it's also an uncompromising tone addressing similar issues which have already surfaced 7 years ago. With a City council environment that has already proven unable to compromise we should brace to witness a 1 stop underground Eglinton West LRT once the City is done debating 5 years from now
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aquateam
Active Member
He raises a lot of good points about the methodology that staff used. They can use those wishy-washy and opaque categories like "Healthy Neighbourhoods" and non-justifications like "visually obstructs vista over Humber River" or "Reduced intuitive wayfinding" as arguments against grade separations, while keeping hard metrics like travel-time impacts, operating costs, ridership impact, etc., hidden. By weighing whatever factor they want, they can come to whatever pre-ordained conclusion they want: in this case, a cookie-cutter centre-of-the-road streetcar in ROW configuration.
It's also good that he points out that they looked at grade-separations in isolation, when the Metrolinx BCA for Eglinton West showed the highest cost-benefit for an entirely grade separated line.
The problem is his tunnel-vision: until Toronto has a modern operating elevated line, we will never see what they can do, at a fraction of the cost of a buried line (the screeching, neglected, SRT that runs through industrial dumps isn't a good comparison). A side of the road, elevated configuration (except maybe for Martin Grove because I'm not sure what the best way is to figure out the mess with the highway ramps and power lines) would mitigate all the traffic impacts and give transit users the speed and reliability to ensure the success of this line.
It's also good that he points out that they looked at grade-separations in isolation, when the Metrolinx BCA for Eglinton West showed the highest cost-benefit for an entirely grade separated line.
The problem is his tunnel-vision: until Toronto has a modern operating elevated line, we will never see what they can do, at a fraction of the cost of a buried line (the screeching, neglected, SRT that runs through industrial dumps isn't a good comparison). A side of the road, elevated configuration (except maybe for Martin Grove because I'm not sure what the best way is to figure out the mess with the highway ramps and power lines) would mitigate all the traffic impacts and give transit users the speed and reliability to ensure the success of this line.
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Avenue
Active Member
I think tunneling can remove the redundant midblock stops by making them too financially infeasible to build, further helping the overall line. It'll be expensive but at least you know what you're getting with it, while I don't really feel confident in Toronto's ability to implement proper signaling priority for public transit. It's a too hands-off too suburban minded a city... I mean we can't even get paid duty police officers to police the traffic to help shuttles moving when subway is closed in this city and it takes like 10 minutes for a shuttle bus from Bedford to get on on Bloor in all that chaos.
I say don't leave it to chance.
I say don't leave it to chance.
Rainforest
Senior Member
I think full tunneling isn't at all reasonable for Eglinton West:
a) The corridor is wide and under-developed at present, and is perfectly suited for a much cheaper but still effective grade separations at the major intersections only.
b) Full tunneling would defeat the purpose of selecting light rail for this corridor. Light-rail vehicles are sub-optimally shaped (tall and narrow) for operating in a tunnel, and have street-worthy features that add to the cost but are useless in the tunnel. Light rail in the central tunnel makes sense if the extremities of the route are built mostly at-grade, saving on the overall cost.
It doesn't look like the idea of tunneled Eglinton West is going to get much traction, anyway. One MPP may have his ideas, but the residents (those of them who ride transit at all) are used to taking a southbound bus to the Bloor subway, or an eastbound bus to YUS.
Nobody cares enough about Eglinton West to make its design a big deal. Good news: it won't be tunneled. Bad news: there is no-one to push for the much cheaper intersections-only grade separations, either.
a) The corridor is wide and under-developed at present, and is perfectly suited for a much cheaper but still effective grade separations at the major intersections only.
b) Full tunneling would defeat the purpose of selecting light rail for this corridor. Light-rail vehicles are sub-optimally shaped (tall and narrow) for operating in a tunnel, and have street-worthy features that add to the cost but are useless in the tunnel. Light rail in the central tunnel makes sense if the extremities of the route are built mostly at-grade, saving on the overall cost.
It doesn't look like the idea of tunneled Eglinton West is going to get much traction, anyway. One MPP may have his ideas, but the residents (those of them who ride transit at all) are used to taking a southbound bus to the Bloor subway, or an eastbound bus to YUS.
Nobody cares enough about Eglinton West to make its design a big deal. Good news: it won't be tunneled. Bad news: there is no-one to push for the much cheaper intersections-only grade separations, either.
rbt
Senior Member
I don't see a feasible near/mid-term tunnel option for this extension. If a tunnel is the only option, it'll remain an unfunded proposal for at least a decade.
Brown is going to struggle to fund RER, even after redirecting all federal transit money at that project, which has far wider conservative voter impact. 70% of PC seats will have priorities that are not transit in the GTA; and another other 25% want RER only (happy to kill Hamilton/Mississauga LRT plans to get it).
Another Wynne majority, and sustained unexpectedly high levels of tax revenue, seem an unlikely combination. Wynne would struggle (with today's finances) to toss another $3B onto Eglinton and no other leader (even another Liberal leader) will be interested.
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sixrings
Senior Member
Dan416
Senior Member
I don't think tunneling the whole thing is necessary, but not grade separating the major intersections would be a travesty.
I don't get why we have to do everything on the cheap, or veer in the opposite direction and build super expensive subways like TYSSE and SSE. It's like half-assed LRT and gold-plated subways. Why can't we have cheap subways and gold-plated LRT?
I don't get why we have to do everything on the cheap, or veer in the opposite direction and build super expensive subways like TYSSE and SSE. It's like half-assed LRT and gold-plated subways. Why can't we have cheap subways and gold-plated LRT?
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Because LRTs don't win votes, regardless of how gold-plated they are. So instead, we get subways for everyone, which really means subways for a select lucky few.
Dan416
Senior Member
Any why can't we have cheap subways?