Metrolinx: Bombardier Flexity Freedom & Alstom Citadis Spirit LRVs

[coopEng]

I see your point as well and agree context is relevant. I don't get the "500 metres from Hamilton to the 401" part though. Would you be able to clarify?

I believe the section of Highway 6 up to the 401 is technically part of "Hamilton" ... is what nfitz may mean

 

[Voltz]

iON Phase II, Eglinton East, Eglinton West, O-Train Phase II. Don't think there will be any shortage of projects for these vehicles to be shifted to.

I think there will be a shortage of projects for these vehicles, even if the O-Train and Hurontario could absorb all of this new order, there is no sign of funding for anything on Eglinton, especially with competition for funding from the DRL and community housing. Even if Eglinton East and West were built as soon as possible, they would not open for several years after Bombardier has delivered the order and Sheppard will never get built. We are going to be stuck with either a big cancellation bill or a bunch of extra vehicles

 

[smallspy]

Are there any resources available comparing the Flexity Freedom vs the Citidas Spirit?

The websites of the various companies is the best place to start. There are so many different versions and permutations of the various models that each company - and Siemens as well - makes a product that will fit whatever requirements are to be met.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TOareaFan]

The websites of the various companies is the best place to start. There are so many different versions and permutations of the various models that each company - and Siemens as well - makes a product that will fit whatever requirements are to be met.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

or

here https://twitter.com/BenSpurr/status/863132587925143554

 

[Allandale25]

I believe the section of Highway 6 up to the 401 is technically part of "Hamilton" ... is what nfitz may mean

There's a small portion of Highway 6 just before the 401 that's outside of Hamilton and I haven't seen a LRT proposal for that route. Unless I'm completely misunderstanding the point.

 

[TOareaFan]

i think you are missing the point....I believe what was being said to you is that considering the HuLRT going to Brampton is similar to suggesting that Hamilton is very close to and served by the 401.....he is pointing out that while that second part is technically true (as your map points out) it serves no real purpose to the majority of people in Hamilton as the part of Hamilton that is only 500m from the 401 is very sparsely populated. (I think)

 

[Allandale25]

i think you are missing the point....I believe what was being said to you is that considering the HuLRT going to Brampton is similar to suggesting that Hamilton is very close to and served by the 401.....he is pointing out that while that second part is technically true (as your map points out) it serves no real purpose to the majority of people in Hamilton as the part of Hamilton that is only 500m from the 401 is very sparsely populated. (I think)

Ah, thanks for that. Yes, I was completely missing the point so I appreciate the clarification and insight into the analogy.

 

[44 North]

The bigger issue, is there's clauses in there about maintenance some other stuff, that effects on how you want to assemble your project team Some of it becomes more difficult if you don't know which vehicles you are using. Bombardier is already contracted to Crosslinx to do rail control and for the 30-year maintenance contract. How does that work now? I'd think Metrolinx is making themselves open for $$$ in claims.

And what about the TTC. The agreements with them were written on the basis that they were using Flexity equipment. How different is the other equipment to operate. If training costs increase then can TTC make claims as well?

This is just so badly thought out ...

Hm, these are interesting points and could be quite the pickle.

 

[nfitz]

Ah, thanks for that. Yes, I was completely missing the point so I appreciate the clarification and insight into the analogy.

Yeah, TOareaFan got it ... sorry, if I thought it would have lead to confusion, I would have checked back earlier!

 

[Allandale25]

Yeah, TOareaFan got it ... sorry, if I thought it would have lead to confusion, I would have checked back earlier!

All good. In a text-based medium like Urban Toronto nuance can be lost so happy to be assisted.

 

[crs1026]

So.... Alstom will supply the Crosstown vehicles but they will be equipped with a signalling system supplied by Bombardier?

- Paul

 

[Steve X]

So.... Alstom will supply the Crosstown vehicles but they will be equipped with a signalling system supplied by Bombardier?

- Paul

Otherwise it won't run in the tunnels.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So.... Alstom will supply the Crosstown vehicles but they will be equipped with a signalling system supplied by Bombardier?

- Paul

The signalling system is supplied by Bombardier, but that doesn't mean it's only compatible with Bombardier trains. I'm assuming Metrolinx wouldn't be so short sighted to install a signalling system that only worked with trains from one manufacturer.

Curiously, TTC's Line 1 is in the opposite situation. They're running Bombardier supplied trains on a signalling system supplied by Alstom.

 

[steveintoronto]

Otherwise it won't run in the tunnels.

Indeed, here's the BBD system:
http://www.bombardier.com/en/transp...tions/mass-transit-solutions/cityflo-650.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cityflo_650_CBTC

And the Thales SelTrac (which is considered by some to be superior and inter-operable with other systems, BBD's not being one):
https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/asset/document/SelTracBrochure_CBTCSolutions_eng.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SelTrac

Both are "CBTC" and at least one poster in another string at this site tried to correct me as per (gist) "PTC and CBTC are not the same thing"...which I'd never stated. The point is that they can be and *are* overlaid. (Crossrail in the UK does this for the main in-tunnel trunk, but common standards are used for the systems) The term "convergence" is coming to the fore, and GO RER are to be equipped with a version of CBTC, ostensibly not BBD's!

Here's an excellent paper from the US on exactly that, and how the EU directives to (at least on heavy rail) to adhere to an EU wide standard is being accomplished by software as much as hardware to allow interoperability:

CBTC/ERTMS/PTC Convergence
David Chabanon
[+] Author Affiliations

Paper No. JRC2013-2447, pp. V001T03A005; 8 pages
doi:10.1115/JRC2013-2447
From:

• 2013 Joint Rail Conference
• 2013 Joint Rail Conference
• Knoxville, Tennessee, USA, April 15–18, 2013
• Conference Sponsors: Rail Transportation Division
• ISBN: 978-0-7918-5530-0
• Copyright © 2013 by ASME

abstract
A trend has recently emerged in re-signaling projects, especially in Europe, where infrastructure managers of large commuter rails are facing a dilemma: “should we install CBTC (Communication Based Train Control) or ERTMS (European Rail Traffic, Management System) — or both?”

These commuter rails often span over a large territory, interfacing sometimes with the national network and have to cross through high-density traffic sections in crowded cities.

This paper discusses this dilemma and the factors that contribute to the decision-making process of deploying a new signaling system.

These factors, often captured early in the business case of the project, are more complex than the simple issues of a) high throughput capability (leaning toward CBTC) and b) interoperability needs (leaning toward ERTMS).

Other factors are considered in the business case such as: operating needs of the railway including the regulation concepts, reducing the Life Cycle Cost of the system, the risk level that the owner is willing to carry, other high-profile national roll-out plans and special needs of key stakeholders. All of these different factors and parameters are discussed in this paper, and are illustrated by actual re-signaling projects in London, Paris, Madrid and Istanbul.

The main characteristics of ERTMS and CBTC are presented with their pros and cons for these types of applications.

The paper further discusses how the industry is reacting to this emerging trend. Are there any state-of-the-art signaling solutions from the suppliers that can fit these types of projects?

The paper also gives an overview of the recent progress of the European Rail Industry in terms of research and development for future signaling systems in urban / suburban areas.

Meanwhile, Positive Train Control (PTC) systems are being deployed in North America on class 1 railroads as mandated by the US congress, primarily as a means to increase safety. At the same time, some US rail transit agencies are adopting CBTC (albeit at a slow pace). The paper explores if there are any lessons from Europe related to CBTC/ERTMS convergence that could apply in North America related to CBTC/PTC convergence.

Copyright © 2013 by ASME

http://proceedings.asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=1764756

A much more detailed discussion ensues at Steve Munro's blog.

There's very real irony in Thales doing the re-signalling for Line 1, but as much as the "two minute headways" are being touted, through no fault of Thales, the TTC doesn't have the stock numbers to make it happen, and is unlikely to do so with present abject budget problems. The TTC is lucky to meet their operating budget, let alone buy the rolling stock needed to meet their latest manic claims.

Crosstown, is of course, a Metrolinx project, and a model now more than ever to be used for the Relief Line. But of course, one can be banned for a week for making such claims at Urban Toronto.

 

[dowlingm]

Anyone know what signal system Ottawa/RTG are using? If it's Cityflo then that should be a straightforward implementation for Crosstown.

I suspect though that Bombardier will keep the Crosstown order, with Citadis going to Finch, Hurontario and Hamilton with Bombardier then getting Ion Phase 2 and Crosstown West.