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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

TheTigerMaster said:
An important addition to my previous post:
Looking at Metrolinx's Order-Of-Magnitude Cost Estimate for the SRT surface alignment, Metrolinx anticipated that construction related to the relocation of Kennedy Station would cost approximately $571 Million. The TTC claims this option is too costly, and that the large loop would be more cost effective. The TTC didn't specify exactly how large the loop is, but based on the distance measured in Google Maps, and the numbers in the report, it would be between 2 km and 3.5 km large. On the low end, tunnelling on the Scarborough Subway (not including stations) will cost around $300 Million/km*. So with this loop being at least 2 km large, under no circumstance would this loop be cheaper than Metrolinx's anticipated cost of $571 Million to relocate Kennedy Station, unless Metrolinx's estimate was way off the mark. Unfortunately, the TTC provided no explanation regarding why the Kennedy relocation would be more expensive than the loop.

*At some point recently, the TTC stated the cost of building tunnels without stations. Does anyone here recall what that was?

The TTC is claiming that the Kennedy Station relocation is too pricey to justify the SRT surface alignment, yet they've provided no justification for why it's too expensive, nor have they detailed what is wrong in the Metrolinx report. They then go on to recommend we spend at least an additional $1.7 Billion on an underground alignment compared to the Metrolinx option. The numbers aren't adding up, as explained above. There's something fishy about all this.
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Well done. Something definitely feels off about this. Although there may be closed-door political motivations, perhaps it's less sinister or shady than it seems. With the talk on here of the "big bend" and Sheppard, then maybe Mlinx and TTC want to preserve the SRT corridor for a Sheppard extension. Or more specifically the 2km section between Stouffville GO and McCowan. It really makes no sense to abandon this corridor, but in such a scenario the elevated section will be rebuilt/reused, and the at-grade section will be cannibalized for GO - i.e little to abandonment. 2km is fairly sizable when one considers the distance between Don Mills and McCowan. That'd save a pretty penny.

tiffer24 said:
newtwitterav_normal.jpg
Matt Elliott@GraphicMatt
1 hour ago
Since when can neighbourhood associations direct staff to study subway alignments? https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...liticians-push-big-bend-for-subway-route.html

View attachment 90134
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The residents around Pape/Gerrard have currently gotten the City to study an alternative alignment for the RL. It might prove fruitless, and the City/TTC kinda got themselves into that pickle, but there's some similarity.
 
sixrings said:
I thought they had a pretty poor quality of life which is why they were begging for a subway.
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Folks in Scarborough do want the subway, they just don't want the construction. It's only fair - downtown elites don't have to put up with any subway construction.
 
Eglinton has had construction for the last few years for the LRT. St Clair had construction for years for the ROW streetcar. In between York and Bay on Front (Union Station) had construction for years for the 2nd platform. But of course nothing is FAIR regarding Scarbrough.
 
sixrings said:
Eglinton has had construction for the last few years for the LRT. St Clair had construction for years for the ROW streetcar. In between York and Bay on Front (Union Station) had construction for years for the 2nd platform. But of course nothing is FAIR regarding Scarbrough.
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As if nobody complained about Eglinton or St Clair construction.

I am not saying that their complains are reasonable, or have to be addressed; they are clearly overplaying their cards. But they are not alone at that.
 
pman said:
Folks in Scarborough do want the subway, they just don't want the construction. It's only fair - downtown elites don't have to put up with any subway construction.
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Considering that we are at an early stage in the EA, it's appropriate for community groups to put forward their input and concerns.

Those documents are over the top in terms of fear-mongering, but may be an honest representation of what is concerning the residents today. These "worst fears" are understandable considering the whole project is still in an early stage and very few firm details have been confirmed. Much of the excess can be factually rebutted or addressed during the EA process. "Nice try, thanks for coming out" will handle much of it.

If Scarborough has not been given its share of subways in the past, then they have also been spared their proper share of the mess and disruption that is a necessary part of transit building. It will be their turn this time. The next project (DRL) will drive a subway right down hipster Queen Street. Let's see who screams about what when that happens.

- Paul
 
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My problem was the implication that other areas of the city get construction without bothering drivers or neighbourhoods.
 
BurlOak said:
I don't think people realize what this means if they put the blame solely on Glen DeBaermaker. He is just a foot soldier working for Brad Duguid and the Liberal Party.
We've gone through 3mayors and transit is still a mess. People need to realize the the common factor is that the provincial government has been orchestrating this mess.
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I guess the PC government were so much better on transit.
 
  1. In 1.5 terms, Liberals (Pederson) got nothing started on transit.
  2. In 1 term, NDP (Rae) started launch shaft for one subway right at the end of their term. Interesting that it was planned as a busway before the NDP got in, changed to a subway by the NDP (since Rae's riding is right there), and then converted to an on street LRT (decades later). Was the subway really needed, or was it a political choice?
  3. In 2 terms, the PC's (Harris, Eeves) completed an entire 6km subway line. The City made the decision on which subway line they wanted. (True, they cancelled one line that was just started, but anyone who who supports LRT is likely happy that the NDP political decision was reversed).
  4. After first 2 terms, the Liberals (McGuinty) did not yet have shovels in the ground to start construction of anything, and their only plan was the subway to Sorbara's riding.
 
BurlOak said:
  1. In 1.5 terms, Liberals (Pederson) got nothing started on transit.
  2. In 1 term, NDP (Rae) started launch shaft for one subway right at the end of their term. Interesting that it was planned as a busway before the NDP got in, changed to a subway by the NDP (since Rae's riding is right there), and then converted to an on street LRT (decades later). Was the subway really needed, or was it a political choice?
  3. In 2 terms, the PC's (Harris, Eeves) completed an entire 6km subway line. The City made the decision on which subway line they wanted. (True, they cancelled one line that was just started, but anyone who who supports LRT is likely happy that the NDP political decision was reversed).
  4. After first 2 terms, the Liberals (McGuinty) did not yet have shovels in the ground to start construction of anything, and their only plan was the subway to Sorbara's riding.
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They tried to cancel that one too if not for Mel Lastman.
 
@BurlOak

I disagree with your summation of the facts. Environmental assessments, engineering design, and contract signing is getting a subway / LRT under construction.

The Harris government didn't start the Sheppard subway, they just didn't cancel it, and the reason it got built in their term was because it had already started. However, the Harris government cancelled the Eglinton subway and pulled back funding the Spadina line extension.

McGuinty did start the Sheppard LRT and Eglinton LRT. McGuinty left in 2013, only 3 years ago. The TBMs were purchased in 2010, and shovels were in the ground in 2011 for Eglinton. Construction started in 2009 for the Sheppard LRT and was set for having been opened already but Ford and Scarborough politicians led to its deprioritization. Metrolinx was formed and massive investments in GO Transit were made during McGuinty's time in office.

I will give you that the Petersen government did nothing for transit. I will also give you that McGuinty did not put any priority on transit in his first term. The only commitment to transit to transit Harris made was not cancelling 100% of the projects, primarily due to a PC mayor in North York. The PC governments prior to Harris were not the extreme right wingers seen in the conservative party today. Prior to Peterson the PC party was the natural governing party of Ontario. Davis didn't do much beyond his first term for transit though, beyond one station extensions and forcing SRT technology onto the TTC. It seems to me the car and freeway culture that had started in the US had altered the conservative views on transportation and the governments role in transit it seems.
 
BurlOak said:
  1. In 1.5 terms, Liberals (Pederson) got nothing started on transit.
  2. In 1 term, NDP (Rae) started launch shaft for one subway right at the end of their term. Interesting that it was planned as a busway before the NDP got in, changed to a subway by the NDP (since Rae's riding is right there), and then converted to an on street LRT (decades later). Was the subway really needed, or was it a political choice?
  3. In 2 terms, the PC's (Harris, Eeves) completed an entire 6km subway line. The City made the decision on which subway line they wanted. (True, they cancelled one line that was just started, but anyone who who supports LRT is likely happy that the NDP political decision was reversed).
  4. After first 2 terms, the Liberals (McGuinty) did not yet have shovels in the ground to start construction of anything, and their only plan was the subway to Sorbara's riding.
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This is called being 'technically correct'. I think EnviroTO's post is a more useful for understanding ruling parties on transit over the years.

EnviroTO said:
Davis didn't do much beyond his first term for transit though, beyond one station extensions and forcing SRT technology onto the TTC.
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Davis was concentrating on highway expansion in his first term, so he was transportation-minded.
 
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