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crs1026
Superstar
My recollection from the 2003 blackout is, they had enough backup power to evacuate the tunnels, but that's all. The bus fleet operated (sort of, considering there were no traffic signals working) but the subway and streetcars were closed down.
I can't imagine a scenario where the Crosstown would keep humming along while the rest of the city went dark. That's what the gas plant proposal amounts to. It's huge overkill. All that is required is sufficient redundancy in feed points and tie lines within the line's power distribution system that a blackout in one part of the city (the most likely event) doesn't shut the line down. City wide blackouts just don't happen that often. We can use the money better on other things.
- Paul
crs1026
Superstar
I chuckle at how people demand that work be contracted out "because the private sector is more results focussed" and then are appalled when they see the result of actually doing that. The contractor, being profit motivated, makes sure that the schedule has generous float so their risk is mitigated. Take a tougher line in negotiations and they will agree to tighter timelines, sure..... but the price goes up. The more risk we ask them to take, the more their reward has to be.
Your engineer-versus-trades shot sounds like sour grapes to me, too. With construction going full tilt in Toronto, you won't see labour rates falling. Whereas there are thousands of engineering professionals out of work in Alberta, many of them mobile. Tightening the schedule doesn't assure that labour is more productive - one glitch and you have even more people sitting around waiting for production to get going again.
Personally, I can live with the schedule, provided it is adhered to.
- Paul
cplchanb
Senior Member
Of course things don't happen overnight.... But to demo only 1 shed in 2 months....? Comon...the lack of urgency for a project that's been late by 20 years is just another example of the systemic lax attitude of the average north American government funded construction project...heck it took only a few more years to dig through a Swiss mountain 3x as long and to dig under the English channel....
It took China 5 years to open a high speed rail link 1200km long and we're still arguing whether via or the government's rail plan is better... Seriously...
But OK lets let them keep to their schedule....they're doing well in their own timeline...unfortunately the rest of the world is only working and growing at 2x the speed
cplchanb
Senior Member
Why shouldn't it be results based? We just sit around happy with the status quo assuming that we are perfectly fine...
Call it sour grapes but you know it's true... The avg blue collar contractor works less for more and it's costing us as well. But sure you can be satisfied with the schedule. I'm happy too that theyre adhering to the schedule too...unfortunately our expectations are akin to those of a rookie team who just got promoted to the premier league....low low expectations
downtownordinary
Active Member
The schedule is set (somewhat) by the private sector company. This project is being delivered as an AFP (Alternative Finance Procurement) which means that the private company is financing all of the construction and won't be paid the majority (there may be smaller interim payments) of $5 Billion until the project is completed. Since the private company is financing all of this it is in their best interest to get the project completed as soon as possible. Quicker its finished, quicker they get paid and can pay back their lenders, thus saving on interest.
More info:
http://www.thecrosstown.ca/the-project/fact-sheets/afp
They have every incentive to get this done as soon as possible, it's a massive project and it'll take time.
rbt
Senior Member
It's also in their interest to delay any piece not in the critical path as long as possible to minimize the financing period (time between the cost and obtaining revenue). Yonge station is the critical path. All other work will be based on progress of Yonge station.
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
Microscopic look into how infrastructure works in the city:
Me private citizen: Transportation services when you repair the curb can you alter the curb cut to what it should be
Transportation Service guy: After several hours of investigation I agree that that change is required
Private contract: Arrives on day of construction starts pouring concrete
Me: Guys do you know they made changes to the curb configuration
Private contractor: We are putting in what was there before
Me: City site inspector are you aware of the curb changes
City site inspector: Let me call Transporation services
Me to private contractor worker: I think you might want to hold off on the finishing they might be doing changes
Private contractor worker while finishing work: Yah I heard it, I hear everything, these guys (referring to the city) are yo-yo's
City Site Inspector to private contractor: We need to re-do all this concrete work
Private contractor: You heard the man. (private contractor workers proceed to re-do the sidewalk)
2 hours later- Transportation services guy shows up to tell private contractor to make curb changes that have already been built
Scale that up and ponder costing and private versus public execution
Me private citizen: Transportation services when you repair the curb can you alter the curb cut to what it should be
Transportation Service guy: After several hours of investigation I agree that that change is required
Private contract: Arrives on day of construction starts pouring concrete
Me: Guys do you know they made changes to the curb configuration
Private contractor: We are putting in what was there before
Me: City site inspector are you aware of the curb changes
City site inspector: Let me call Transporation services
Me to private contractor worker: I think you might want to hold off on the finishing they might be doing changes
Private contractor worker while finishing work: Yah I heard it, I hear everything, these guys (referring to the city) are yo-yo's
City Site Inspector to private contractor: We need to re-do all this concrete work
Private contractor: You heard the man. (private contractor workers proceed to re-do the sidewalk)
2 hours later- Transportation services guy shows up to tell private contractor to make curb changes that have already been built
Scale that up and ponder costing and private versus public execution
crs1026
Superstar
The two little words that doom a large project : "Change Order".
Somebody always wants to install a newer and better component that just became available, or issues new standards for some aspect of the design, or some decisionmaker hears from some constituent and tries to inject a new idea into the plan. Especially troublesome if execution is being rushed before the engineering design is fleshed out to full detail and then locked down.
There are lots of studies out there that say private versus public really isn't what determines the effectiveness of big projects. It's the quality of project management, the quality of accountability and data flow between levels and organizations, and how well the risks are understood and dealt with. A private contractor with a dysfunctional group of sub's, and a dysfunctional relationship with the customer, can screw this up just as well as government can.
- Paul
rbt
Senior Member
That's not really private versus public. It's big organization versus small organization. You can find the same inter-departmental communication flaws at nearly any large corp too.
It's not an easy problem to solve either. You either communicate everything and everybody spends 90% of their time reading memos via email; or you communicate selectively and someone who needs to know gets missed; or you come up with a convoluted system like Project Management which becomes responsible for finding relevant people and forcing them to communicate but this is often top-heavy (strictly viewed as overhead) and when department budgets get cut is an easy target.
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muller877
Senior Member
If we want a better power supply we need the power plants closer to the city. Regions around Nanticoke were only out for 30 minutes in the 2003 blackout while we were out for days. But of course we paid $1 billion to build a gas plant and then tear it down in the GTA. So we get what we deserve...at the whims of a hydro system that is hundreds of km long.
I assume the Airport's system is designed to get them through a power outage and to land planes safely....it was probably not designed with enough capacity to do much more.
kotsy
Senior Member
wopchop
Building Toronto
First of all, most sites run 7AM to 330PM.
And how have you measured that engineers "work much longer and harder"? I won't argue with the hours, as many engineers do in fact work long hours and work very hard. However, many don't, and many construction workers do in fact work long hours. The opposite is also true. Generalizations, as always, are doomed to failure. I've worked 10-12 hours a day for most of this year, for instance. As has most of my crew.
But harder? Is it harder to consult a chart to tell you what beam to put in? Is it harder to click and make lines on AutoCAD? Maybe. Maybe not.
Indeed. And unfortunately, no matter how many hard working engineers and estimators are working on these projects for peanuts (according to some), they still fail to properly plan their projects. So you are already ending up with people sitting around waiting for production to get going again. So much for working harder.
As you correctly said before, any accelerated schedule will require more manpower, will entails more risk. Companies are correctly pricing that risk into their costs for these projects.
Not sure how you are measuring less for more. Is freezing my balls off for a full days work so that you can have glass condos working less for more? Is laying asphalt for 10 - 12 hours a day in the heat, humidity, sun, working less for more? Is slugging drywall all day so that you can buy frozen yogurt or fancy burgers working less for more? Is working from dawn to dusk for 7 days a week so that renovations can be complete for school openings working less for more? Is brutalizing your body and health for years on end working less for more? Is exposing yourself to constant risk of injury or death for years on end working less for more? Please.
Or perhaps it's simply that different people have different skills and you are feeling a bit jealous that your skills are not as valuable economically in the current market.
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TheTigerMaster
Superstar
This is a ridiculous conversation. Working "harder" is a pretty difficult thing to quantify. If we really want to determine who works harder, I suppose we should distribute pay based on how many units of energy their bodies consume while doing their jobs.
Monarch Butterfly
Superstar
With plans for the LRT to be on a surface right-of-way, east of the Science Centre Station to Kennedy Station, I think the bicycle lanes are only added as an afterthought. There really has been no thinking done how to incorporate bicycle lanes in the roadway. Especially at the intersections. See this video on how they separate bicycles from the automobile traffic in The Netherlands.
In the west end, with the extension along Eglinton Avenue West, they seem to be assuming that only the current bicycle path (with modifications) will be used. It's only on the south side. There should be a north side cycle path, as well. Along with a sidewalk on the north side.
In the west end, with the extension along Eglinton Avenue West, they seem to be assuming that only the current bicycle path (with modifications) will be used. It's only on the south side. There should be a north side cycle path, as well. Along with a sidewalk on the north side.
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