Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[DonValleyRainbow]

The only way a Queen alignment can possibly work is if a Union Station GO train tunnel goes ahead at the same time. Putting the DRL on Queen is going to leave waterfront residents heavily dependent on GO Transit to get around because Queen Street is not within walking distance of the waterfront. Building new GO stations at Spadina and Liberty Village is encouraging but this is not going to help unless the Union Station capacity issue is solved and the Lakeshore and Kitchener lines can handle 30000/hour. If the Union Station GO tunnel is built then a Queen DRL + GO serves a larger area than a King DRL, but without a GO tunnel, a Queen DRL is going to leave GO overloaded and a Queen DRL is too far away for people living south of King Street to walk to.

A Barrie Line stop at Spadina/Front seems to be a resemblance of the other Union Capacity Study option that was short-listed: a Bathurst Yard station that ties into the DRL. Now I don't think the last part of that would happen, but it could divert some riders onto the 510 streetcar and, if required, the DRL at Queen.

The other thing that was never assumed during that study is the potential for the Milton Line to be diverted to midtown. Summerhill has historically been the Union regional rail relief station, but never seriously pursued with CP using the ROW. If Ontario has landed an agreement in principle with CN for the 407 Freight Bypass, I don't think it is out of reach yet.

 

[andrewpmk]

I don't get all the hysterics about a Queen Street alignment at this point. We're only talking an additional 5 minute walk between King and Queen, so waterfront front residents aren't disadvantaged whatsoever, especially if they're taking a connecting north-south service from the subway southwards anyway.

The point is that it will overload GO if the DRL runs along Queen Street. Few people going to destinations south of King Street will use a DRL that runs along Queen. Therefore, people going to Exhibition Place, CityPlace, the Rogers Centre, etc. are unlikely to use it. The result is that they will overload the GO Lakeshore line which will require a major capacity increase.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

The point is that it will overload GO if the DRL runs along Queen Street. Few people going to destinations south of King Street will use a DRL that runs along Queen. Therefore, people going to Exhibition Place, CityPlace, the Rogers Centre, etc. are unlikely to use it. The result is that they will overload the GO Lakeshore line which will require a major capacity increase.

That's kind of ridiculous - there isn't even a DRL now and GO doesn't get overloaded going to the Ex (and it's not even RER). Please don't make anything up to justify the King preference claiming that any other alignment will somehow lead to an unbuilt system getting saturated.

AoD

 

[DSC]

That's kind of ridiculous - there isn't even a DRL now and GO doesn't get overloaded going to the Ex (and it's not even RER). Please don't make anything up to justify the King preference claiming that any other alignment will somehow lead to the system getting saturated.

AoD

Agreed BUT the current GO fare structure means very few take GO in Toronto so GO certainly does not get overloaded going to the EX (at least, not with Torontonians who can and do use the TTC. If, and it's a big if. the City and Metrolinx sort out fares and offer equivalent fares this will change, dramatically.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Agreed BUT the current GO fare structure means very few take GO in Toronto so GO certainly does not get overloaded going to the EX (at least, not with Torontonians who can and do use the TTC. If, and it's a big if. the City and Metrolinx sort out fares and offer equivalent fares this will change, dramatically.

Of course that will affect how traffic is distributed - but a) moving DRL 500m isn't going to change much and b) if you are in a situation where GO gets overloaded, it will do so either way and c) let's not for a moment stop and consider that we aren't getting rid of/stop improving the existing network either.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Yikes, Relief Line phase 1 costs have now been escalated to $6 Billion.

 

[Forgotten]

(Source: other thread)

A good question would be why the big priority on gentrifying Moss Park instead of supporting the private businesses making things happen in the city. The chart illustrates why the age old axiom 'the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few' is so important.

Come on we'd all like to see what these already apparent development interests are that outweigh what's shown. People don't want Kesmat treated like a super villain? Fine don't act like one.

Yikes, Relief Line phase 1 costs have now been escalated to $6 Billion.

$6 billion and in the lowest ridership corridor lol

 

[andrewpmk]

Agreed BUT the current GO fare structure means very few take GO in Toronto so GO certainly does not get overloaded going to the EX (at least, not with Torontonians who can and do use the TTC. If, and it's a big if. the City and Metrolinx sort out fares and offer equivalent fares this will change, dramatically.

I am assuming 15 minute service or better and TTC fares on GO. The point is, there are numerous major destinations (Exhibition Place, CityPlace and Rogers Centre being the obvious ones) which a Queen DRL poorly serves and a King or Wellington route serves much better. Once GO RER happens, I expect that people in those areas will be heavy users of GO. On the other hand, there are hardly any major destinations along Queen that aren't already served by the existing (overcrowded) subway. Most of Queen is heritage designated and can't be redeveloped without zoning changes, and a lot of it is near single family houses. The only destinations of any importance along Queen are the CAMH and the Regent Park redevelopment.

I am sure that there will be more studies of the DRL in the future, probably done by Metrolinx and they will contradict the urban planning department's study. The Queen route isn't set in stone. I think that putting the DRL along Queen is a political game to make the SmartTrack projections look better, to save Keesmaat's King closure idea (which would be totally pointless if the DRL ran along King) and because people at City Hall think that having a subway to City Hall is more important that it really is.

 

[Hopkins123]

Well it's a trade off of what we value more. Gain better access to the CBD (which extends north to Queen already) or loose the better connection to destinations further north such as OCAD, Ryerson, MuchMusic, Queen West shopping district, Chinatown, Alexandra Park, Regent Park, City Hall, Eaton Centre, St Michaels, other hospitals, 245 Queen East redevelopment.

Everybody has choices, but I think the City Council has made the right call on this one. You can't please everyone all the time.

 

[Forgotten]

Well it's a trade off of what we value more. Gain better access to the CBD (which extends north to Queen already) or loose the better connection to destinations further north such as OCAD, Ryerson, MuchMusic, Queen West shopping district, Chinatown, Alexandra Park, Regent Park, City Hall, Eaton Centre, St Michaels, other hospitals, 245 Queen East redevelopment.

Everybody has choices, but I think the City Council has made the right call on this one. You can't please everyone all the time.

Are residential locations destinations now? Moot argument because half of the spots on your list would still be closer to other existing subway stations so people are going to transfer or come by another route to begin with. Who cares about "Queen West shopping district" when it's the same stores as any mall? By the way keep up with your UT headlines 245 Queen East was rejected by the city.

 

[Hopkins123]

Are residential locations destinations now? Moot argument because half of the spots on your list would still be closer to other existing subway stations so people are going to transfer or come by another route to begin with. Who cares about "Queen West shopping district" when it's the same stores as any mall? By the way keep up with your UT headlines 245 Queen East was rejected by the city.

If residential locations are not destinations, then why the big stink over having a DRL subway directly serve CityPlace and Liberty Village then (places that could already be conveniently accessible to commuter rail with just the addition of a few GO RER stops)? And Queen West has the same appeal as similar shopping districts along Bloor, Danforth and central Eglinton - all corridors with or soon to have subways.

 

[WislaHD]

I see that in todays report that the Relief Line to Sheppard/Don Mills is officially designated as phase 2.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Also notable is that the extension to Sheppard (phase 2) likely won't be enough to bring the Yonge Line below capacity.

Would anyone like to say something about extending the line further north (and I know there are some who are eager to here)

 

[TheTigerMaster]

False alarm on the $6 Billion relief Line reported earlier today.

Costs in 2016 dollars will be between $4.1 and $4.4 Billion, depending on precise alignment.

The $6.7 Billion estimate was in escalated dollars (YOE), which I believe means 2031 dollars in this case n

 

[WislaHD]

Also notable is that the extension to Sheppard (phase 2) likely won't be enough to bring the Yonge Line below capacity.

Here is the relevant information:

Both Option 2 and Option 3 perform very well in relieving Bloor-Yonge station, but Option 3 connects with 514 Streetcar and future Waterfront East LRT, in addition to grabbing more new net riders.