What is RER?

[ssiguy2]

It seems that there are so many transit plans all with different routes, technology, and political necessities.

So many of them and where stations should be, route, technology used, whether they should be grade separated or not, ridership forecasts, development potential, and a whole host of other considerations are usually viewed in terms of how it will connect or effect ridership on RER but it seems the idea of RER is a very vague one.

We all have this general agreement that it will be electrified rail that comes more frequent than GO but outside of that it's pretty murky.

What are the routes? Where are the stations? Where is the map? What's the technology? If on regular rail will these be double-decker {ie Sydney} or single-deck {ie Melbourne} trains? How often will it come? How much will it cost? Will there be fare integration? Will it cost no more than a TTC or be as expensive as GO rail?
Will the UPX become part of RER? How large will the trains be? What will RER capacity be on each line? What's the timetable for getting it up and running? What will the average speed be? Will they always use Union or are they planning a downtown tunnel like Mel/Syd? What are the hours of operation?

These are all very basic questions when planning for mass/rapid transit and yet as far as I know none have completely been answered and for most none at all.

I can understand why Tory wants to forge ahead with ST and not waiting for GO or considering it's impact on ridership because RER is a complete unknown. Wynne and company like to toss the word around but I don't see a master plan. Right now RER is, quite literally, not even lines on a map.

 

[1overcosc]

RER isn't so much a specific project. It's more of a vision that we're working towards incrementally.

Right now they're working on projects like double tracking GO lines and grade separating rail crossings/diamonds to allow for more reliable service and to allow for two-way all day service on more routes. The first win here was last fall when two-way midday service began on the Brampton line. I believe two-way all-day service is beginning on the line to Markham pretty soon as well (this year, if I'm not mistaken).

It starts with adding more trips and transitioning to two-way all day service. From there further improvements are made to allow increased frequencies. Then lines are electrified and new trains are brought in. At the same time Metrolinx is doing planning work on integrating GO service with local transit on things like fares and bus connections.

 

[robmausser]

To compound ontop of 1overcosc said, there is a plan, but not all of it has been worked out yet because it doesnt need to be.

The focus is now getting more tracks and grade separations in place on the GO network in the areas that GO RER is expected.

There is a map highlighting where electrification will be

but it should be noted that Electrification does not mean GO RER. For example, the entire Stouville and Barrie lines are expected to be electrified, but locomotive electric trains will be expected to run past Aurora and Unionville on those lines.

This is the area planned to get GO RER

And certain expectations outlined in documents, but things like the type of Electric trains, and what areas will get electrification first havent been nailed down yet. Its expected that the Georgetown line and Stouffville lines will be first in order to accommodate the promises of electrifying the UPX and bringing Smarttrack type service to the GTA.

The nice thing about adding more tracks and grade separations is that it can still increase service with the current Diesel fleet while we hammer out all the details of GO RER.

Extra stations are being investigated, but still being decided upon:

So to summarize things are taking a phased approach as particular things need to be done first to accommodate GO RER, and can still benefit the current GO train system as it is.

-Additional trackage and grade separations.
-fare integration
-Adding infill stations
-Electrification of the corridors
-rolling stock type

There will obviously be overlap between each phase, but they are listed in order of a priority of sorts in terms of what Metrolinx is figuring out first and foremost.

We are not at the stage of even caring about the train type etc, we need to still do so much to even consider this first.

 

[44 North]

From what I know, I'd say one of the most important things to be addressed before the current plans move forward is Union's capacity issue. The 2011 "Union 2031" report painted a dire picture, and that was well before the 2014 RER + electrification promise for Stouffville and Barrie. With these lines now slated for upgrade, Union and USRC's capacity crunch will obviously be more amplified than previously projected. However other than YRNS, we really haven't seen much of anything following that report. Since it's a major cost (i.e over a $1bn) + headache + doesn't win votes, perhaps it's been purposefully ignored. But either way I think in the coming year or two we should theoretically see Union and USRC addressed, and maybe the current RER plans cool off a bit.

 

[robmausser]

From what I know, I'd say one of the most important things to be addressed before the current plans move forward is Union's capacity issue. The 2011 "Union 2031" report painted a dire picture, and that was well before the 2014 RER + electrification promise for Stouffville and Barrie. With these lines now slated for upgrade, Union and USRC's capacity crunch will obviously be more amplified than previously projected. However other than YRNS, we really haven't seen much of anything following that report. Since it's a major cost (i.e over a $1bn) + headache + doesn't win votes, perhaps it's been purposefully ignored. But either way I think in the coming year or two we should theoretically see Union and USRC addressed, and maybe the current RER plans cool off a bit.

I wonder if Bathurst North Station will be floated again as an idea to improve capacity.

Also perhaps another solution will come with "The Missing Link": reopen Toronto North station and have say, every other RER train terminate there.

If proper fare integration is proposed, then one could take the subway at Summerhill downtown. This will add more demand on the Yonge line however, so would have to be compounded with relief of some kind.

Although, not every person who takes GO wants to go downtown.

 

[rbt]

From what I know, I'd say one of the most important things to be addressed before the current plans move forward is Union's capacity issue. The 2011 "Union 2031" report painted a dire picture, and that was well before the 2014 RER + electrification promise for Stouffville and Barrie.

Union suffers from a couple of issues. Huge dwell time for trains. It takes several minutes to unload a train, and lines for stairs off-platform frequently back-up into the trains themselves.

Electrification offers faster acceleration/deceleration which can help shorten dwell time. Smaller cars (single deck) with more doors would also help reduce dwell time.


I don't know how to get passengers off platforms any faster, though some speculate that half the tracks (much much wider platforms) with 2x the frequencies would be a workable solution *if* train dwell was no longer a technical problem (EMUs help this).

The 2031 Electrification Study Reference material used for the Union 2031 report didn't imagine any changes in the size or layout of the trains. Just that they would accelerate/decelerate better.

 

[TOareaFan]

I don't know how to get passengers off platforms any faster, though some speculate that half the tracks (much much wider platforms) with 2x the frequencies would be a workable solution *if* train dwell was no longer a technical problem (EMUs help this).

I actually think this is a huge challenge and not going to be made any better with more frequent service and shorter dwell times. Everytime I use one of the stairwells at the new York concourse, I think to myself "good thing this is only 1 way traffic".....if we get to the point where trains are dwelling shorter times and we are using the platforms more then those stairwells are going to be facing two way traffic a lot more frequently than they are today and they simply won't be able to handle it.....this may be alleviated by the re-opening of Bay....but, still, the idea is to drive more passengers through so maybe that won't make as much a difference as first thought would indicate.

 

[44 North]

Yea, it's definitely an interesting discussion. Satellite hubs, midtown diversion, crosstown/central tunnel, etc; and/or switch to single level, high platform, improved station mobility, etc. There's a lot of possibilities, a lot of morphing plans, and seemingly impossible decisions to make until we know how we're going to move forward into 2020 with a DRL, RER, Missing Link, and the ever-changing solutions for Scarboro.

 

[ssiguy2]

You guys are making my point.............you all "think" it will involve this that or the next thing but no one knows for sure including Queen's Park. As it stands right now RER is nothing more than more frequent GO service and that's it.

How does Metrolinx expect the TTC to coordinate with RER when RER is just a "vision thing" with no clear timeline, service levels, fares, integration, routes or stations. If Metrolinx and Queen's Park aren't sure what exactly RER is and who it will serve how the helll do they expect Tory to know?

 

[mdrejhon]

There are train stations of Union post-revitalization capacity, already taking well more than twice as many passengers as Union currently is, while maintaining roughly the same amount of platform crowding.

We'll need a combination of most:

- Shorter dwell times
- All concourses open (York/Bay)
- Resignalling the USRC corridor
- Resignalling all corridors to at least Weston sub (or better) blocks
- Upgrading of the USRC switches
- Kitchener-Stoufville becomes one through route, much like LSE-LSW is a through route
- Eventual merger of UPX with another service (e.g. whatever is planned as SmartTrack), as the electric follow-on to UPX
- Possibly high platforms for some tracks to accomodate a theoretical high-platform Kitchener-Stoufville allstop route (SmartTrack) assuming all new ST stations are high platforms, to help high frequencies. Faster embark/disembark.
- Possible double berthing for some routes (e.g. Milton/extra peak trains) west of York.
- Unifying services for efficient corridor capacity (on some routes like the Kitchener-Stoufville electric trains becomes the allstops, diesel trains become the express trains)
- Electrifying the entire Stoufville line, using same trainset for ST and GO Stoufville, short-turning most trains at Unionville for ST -- make most of the double-track corridor.

It's a tall order, but not impossible. A matter of money.

But yes, incremental phasing, what robmausser said, and maybe with surges of possible megaproject accelerations (infrastructure stimuluses, etc).

 

[BurlOak]

This came from an interesting tweet. I guess it fits into this thread.

Union Station shed renovation stalled by low arches and an electrified future

 

[reaperexpress]

You guys are making my point.............you all "think" it will involve this that or the next thing but no one knows for sure including Queen's Park. As it stands right now RER is nothing more than more frequent GO service and that's it.

How does Metrolinx expect the TTC to coordinate with RER when RER is just a "vision thing" with no clear timeline, service levels, fares, integration, routes or stations. If Metrolinx and Queen's Park aren't sure what exactly RER is and who it will serve how the helll do they expect Tory to know?

How the helll do you expect Metrolinx to just come up with a specific plan for the next half-century of railway development in Ontario and actually stick to it?

There are an enormous number of variables involved, so it is only natural that the exact plan will change as studies and negotiations uncover various challenges and opportunities. RER is a general vision, which is 4 tph all-day local service and 1 tph regional service on as many lines as practical. It doesn't make sense to just arbitrarily make up service levels, fares, integration, routes and stations now and stick to them no matter what.

For example, if you look at Figure 4 above, you'll notice that Kitchener RER ends at Bramalea, rather than Mount Pleasant which is the logical terminus, and Barrie RER ends at Aurora rather than the logical terminus of East Gwillimbury. Furthermore, there is "no off-peak service" to Kitchener, even though the Province promised all-day GO there within a decade.
The lack of any promised service west of Bramalea is likely since it depends on negotiations with CN which have not occurred yet and cannot occur until they're closer to implementation. And the lack of frequent service north of Aurora is likely due to the challenge of double-tracking through Aurora and Newmarket, something which would require a detailed study which has not yet occurred.

 

[BurlOak]

If Metrolinx has changed their plans in the past 10 years then that is a very bad sign. They are an Agency of the Provincial government and the provincial government has not changed it that time. If they can change with the Liberals are still in power then we should fully accept that they should change when the government changes - which it likely will in the next 50 years.

 

[kEiThZ]

I wish Metrolinx would accept that they need to do more with RER for Toronto. 4 tph does nothing for the 416. And Smart Track needs more track space. There's an obvious solution here. Merge the two. Send 1 of every 3 trains into the 905. 15 mins service in the 905. 5 mins in 416. Lakeshore East and West become a single corridor. Kitchener-Stouffvile become a single corridor.

I get that people don't like Smart Track. But what exactly is 15 min service going to do for the 416. Let alone 1 hr on Stouffville.

The 905 focus for the RER is well-intentioned but pigheaded. It leaves the inner suburbs spending 2 hrs on TTC.

 

[WislaHD]

I wish Metrolinx would accept that they need to do more with RER for Toronto. 4 tph does nothing for the 416. And Smart Track needs more track space. There's an obvious solution here. Merge the two. Send 1 of every 3 trains into the 905. 15 mins service in the 905. 5 mins in 416. Lakeshore East and West become a single corridor. Kitchener-Stouffvile become a single corridor.

I get that people don't like Smart Track. But what exactly is 15 min service going to do for the 416. Let alone 1 hr on Stouffville.

The 905 focus for the RER is well-intentioned but pigheaded. It leaves the inner suburbs spending 2 hrs on TTC.

This is what Metrolinx should be doing anyway. John Tory's SmartTrack is just an unneeded distraction to both Metrolinx and the TTC's primary priority, the DRL.