Transit City Plan Debate (was Progress)

[khristopher]

If the city is planning to start construction in 2009, 2010 and 2011 for Sheppard, Finch and Eglinton respectively, when may we predict these lines open? Hopefully Sheppard and Finch will be up and running by 2020 (if St. Clair construction times are any indication it may be 2025).

It's all supposed to be completed by 2020.

[Disparishun]

The city of Toronto has multiple planning/engineering crews and began work on the first three projects around the same time. Eglinton took longer to plan and will take longer to build because it's the most complex.

Ah. When you said they were starting construction on Sheppard East, Finch West, and Eglinton in 2009, 2010, and 2011, respectively, I thought you meant that they were starting work first on Sheppard East, then on Finch West, then on Eglinton.

But if they're starting all three immediately and working on all of them in parallel then, sure, that's great.

If you can get other crews to work on other lines at the same time, why on earth would you tell them to stop?

I'm pretty sure noone is telling them to stop. Are they?

[RedRocket191]

I'm pretty sure noone is telling them to stop. Are they?

Poetic license

The dates i quote are about when construction will begin, but design work has been going on for some time now and started around the same time (or within a few months of each other).

[lead82]

Is it just me or does anyone else agree that design work seems to take way too long for projects in this city. After all this supposed effort in design, we don't get much out of it. The Transit-City lines will be St. Clair copies. I don't quite understand what is there to design really. During the PIC meetings they already had the station locations and the route overlay on the map. Why do they need another year or two to 'finalize' things.

Seems like a waste of time and taxpayer dollars. Lets start building already. Sheppard LRT should start in spring 2009, not fall. Why start construction in the fall?

[RedRocket191]

You still have to do detailed engineering design. It's the same concept as St. Clair, but that's about it. Every inch of the corridor has to be accounted for, just like you would have to do to build a house.

Here's a great example of what can happen if you "just start building already"

http://www.spike.com/episode/25591/st/2904472

(They build an apartment building above an underground river)

[Chuck]

Is it just me or does anyone else agree that design work seems to take way too long for projects in this city. After all this supposed effort in design, we don't get much out of it. The Transit-City lines will be St. Clair copies. I don't quite understand what is there to design really. During the PIC meetings they already had the station locations and the route overlay on the map. Why do they need another year or two to 'finalize' things.

The following items are considered during the design stage, and are unique to each Transit City line:

-relocation of catch basins, and reconnection to existing sewage pipes.
-relocation of hydro poles a vaults.
-relocation of light standards.
-relocation of fire hydrants, and connection to existing water mains.
-phasing of construction around buried utilities.
-rewiring of traffic lights, street lighting, hydro poles and wires.
-replacement of sewer and water mains.
-estimation of traffic volumes and calculation of signal timing.
-confirmation that minimum permissible lane widths will be available.

[W. K. Lis]

The following items are considered during the design stage, and are unique to each Transit City line:

-relocation of catch basins, and reconnection to existing sewage pipes.
-relocation of hydro poles a vaults.
-relocation of light standards.
-relocation of fire hydrants, and connection to existing water mains.
-phasing of construction around buried utilities.
-rewiring of traffic lights, street lighting, hydro poles and wires.
-replacement of sewer and water mains.
-estimation of traffic volumes and calculation of signal timing.
-confirmation that minimum permissible lane widths will be available.

Once the plans are drawn up, they must wait for bids for construction to come in, decide if the bids are okay, reference checks, job fairs for construction workers, training of new inexperienced workers, buying of any needed property (good year for buyers), demolition if any, and then the real construction.

[lead82]

Right, I understand that all of these things need to be designed. My question is why they haven't started doing all this earlier? Couldn't most of that engineering design work have been done already? These lines were presented long ago, and yet we keep waiting on design. This design work is done in house by the TTC, so a lot of it could have already been done and a lot of it is similar to the St. Clair line designs. Sure there are some particular unique instances where specific design features are required for each line but most of the time it's the same design utilized.

My impression is that the TTC presents a project, and then waits for funding from provinces for the capital and construction expenses. However, this wastes a lot of time. Why not present a project and use some TTC cash to start the design work. That way when the money comes, construction can begin fairly quickly thereafter once bidding takes places and reference checks are done and so forth.

This design work causes years and years of unnecessary delays for transit projects. Why is it that home and condo builders are much faster at putting up condos, yet the TTC can't start building a transit line in a few years. Other cities like Madrid are able to build hundreds of km's of lines in 10 years, yet TTC is not able to? Transit city is a good candidate for this. I hope that once the LRT ball gets rolling all 7 lines can be built quickly and open for service by 2020 if not earlier.

[299 bloor call control.]

The planning and engineering work for Transit City is not being done in house. Various transportation consulting and engineering firms are working on the individual lines. Transit City is actually moving faster than most transit projects have in the past, thanks mostly to the expedited EA process.

Planning costs can't just come out of "TTC cash", if there even is such a thing. "TTC cash" barely covers the cost of operating and maintaining the existing system. All Transit City EAs and engineering design is coming from capital funding grants from the upper tiers of government. And as a result, the detailed design phase could not proceed until the money was provided, not to mention that the EAs aren't even complete to allow for detailed design.

Just because St Clair has a right of way down the middle of the street, it doesn't mean that its design can be cut and paste on top of any other street, as Chuck has mentioned. Every street has different widths, different traffic conditions, different curb cuts and site entry points, different environmental conditions, different built environments... need I go on?

Finally, I think you're extremely oversimplifying the planning process. Condos and homes don't just go up in a year, they take just as long, if not longer, to go through the planning, approvals, and construction process. The condos you see going up today probably started design and approvals four or five years ago. Take a gander at the Projects & Construction forum and look at the first post in the threads of projects now under construction. You'll notice they date back to 2005 or 2006. Then remember that the project has probably been in the works for a year or two before that before we at Urban Toronto found out about it.

[isittimetomoveyet]

This design work causes years and years of unnecessary delays for transit projects. Why is it that home and condo builders are much faster at putting up condos, yet the TTC can't start building a transit line in a few years. Other cities like Madrid are able to build hundreds of km's of lines in 10 years, yet TTC is not able to? Transit city is a good candidate for this. I hope that once the LRT ball gets rolling all 7 lines can be built quickly and open for service by 2020 if not earlier.

There is a multitude of reasons why Madrid has set such a strong precedent by putting in so much subway over the last couple of years, most notably the vast access to huge chunks of "EU cash" - in the form of equalization payments and transfers.

But there are other issues too. Their soil conditions are more ideal than ours, and they literally keep the bores underground and run them year round, and complete the walls and such at a later date. Their underground runs much deeper than ours too. No sewer or water main replacements and such.

We could dramatically increase the number of subways we could build, and the cost... but we would not be able to achieve the low cost that Madrid has. Even then, if we could exceed expectations and build subways in the GTA for 60 or 70 million/km (which is cheap as I recall, for subways)... that is still twice as much as LRT, and in times when funds are tight... money rules the day.

[RedRocket191]

Finally, I think you're extremely oversimplifying the planning process. Condos and homes don't just go up in a year, they take just as long, if not longer, to go through the planning, approvals, and construction process. The condos you see going up today probably started design and approvals four or five years ago. Take a gander at the Projects & Construction forum and look at the first post in the threads of projects now under construction. You'll notice they date back to 2005 or 2006. Then remember that the project has probably been in the works for a year or two before that before we at Urban Toronto found out about it.

Case in point:

A practicing planner / professor I know has been working on a development for 12 years. That may not be typical, but it goes to show you how long it can take to go from idea just to approval. Factor in the credit crisis and it could be another decade before the project is completed...

[grey]

Factor in the credit crisis and it could be another decade before the project is completed...

...except that the credit crisis ironically makes this project more likely to be completed as a recipient of big infrastructure spending by the province and Feds.

[jks]

^^^^ Fingers crossed for the january budget!

[Chuck]

Right, I understand that all of these things need to be designed. My question is why they haven't started doing all this earlier? Couldn't most of that engineering design work have been done already? These lines were presented long ago, and yet we keep waiting on design. This design work is done in house by the TTC, so a lot of it could have already been done and a lot of it is similar to the St. Clair line designs. Sure there are some particular unique instances where specific design features are required for each line but most of the time it's the same design utilized.

My impression is that the TTC presents a project, and then waits for funding from provinces for the capital and construction expenses. However, this wastes a lot of time. Why not present a project and use some TTC cash to start the design work. That way when the money comes, construction can begin fairly quickly thereafter once bidding takes places and reference checks are done and so forth.

You are oversimplifying the field of engineering (are you an architect by any chance?) According to your logic, structural engineering for the Scotia Tower was a waste of time because the developer could have used the drawings made for First Canadian Place simply because it's a similar sized building.

For projects of this nature, there are no typical details. Nothing from the St. Clair line can be transferred to the other Transit City lines. The TTC does not do engineering in house, but even if it did, there could be no short cuts anyway.

As for funding, the TTC is broke. It has no spare cash to initiate design work. What money the TTC does have comes directly from upper levels of government. Unless funding is secured, there can be no work of any kind done on any project.

If you're upset, then fine. Run for mayor and try to fix it.

[lead82]

I guess I over simplified things. Mostly I'm just frustrated by the whole process of presenting projects and than waiting decades for them to be built. I'm not an architect but I have a more logical way of thinking. My thinking goes that once you announce a project you should be ready to built it soon. So maybe I'm frustrated that many projects here are announced way too early when they just have an idea. This causes people to get their hopes up, and then down when they don't see any progress, or it is invisible. A good example of this is the Spadina subway project. This has been around for more than 10 years now and still nothing is happening. The same thing is happening with the waterfront.

I'm frustrated that any tiny momentum that transpires when a project is announced and funding provided is wasted by bureaucracy and red tape. I'm hoping this project wont meet the same fate.