York Region Transit: Viva service thread

[nfitz]

Right from richmond hills own calculator:
http://www.richmondhill.ca/webforms/taxcalculator.asp

For 2014, 800,000K = 6831.87 = 569.3225 per month
So that's 0.85% a year

For Toronto it is 5,784.07 for the same 800K... 0.72%

This matches the rates ... why are factoring in square footage what does that have to do with anything, its purely based on property value.


BTW Richmondhill and Markham have the LOWEST residential property taxes in the 905 ... most of the others above 1%.

Your also including the Ontario education tax in this, which isn't part of the municipal tax. It's the same mill rate for Toronto and Kenora (which means the person with a the small $500,000 house in Toronto is paying 10 times more in education tax than someone with a bigger $50,000 house in Wawa). You need to subtract the 0.203% education tax to get a feel for what the municipality gets.

The residential rates without the Ontario education tax aren't difficult to find: (these are mostly 2014 rates):

Toronto - 0.5000085% (0.7230085% with the education tax).
Mississauga - 0.70537%
Brampton - 0.938747%
Oshawa - 1.38767%
Pickering - 1.098837%
Vaughan - 0.659149%
Richmond Hill - 0.650984%

... hmm, odd that you chose Richmond Hill for your example.

And really ... a $2.5 million Toronto condo for comparison?

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

TTC cost recovery ratio is the result of underfunding by the province. Before Mike Harris it was 60%. When the province eliminated its 50% operating subsidy, the TTC cut a massive amount of service to make up for that loss and the cost recovery suddenly became 80%. Service has improved since because some funding has returned, and the cost recovery fell to the current 73%, but TTC still has some crazy fares like $141 for a monthly pass (although the YRT fares overall are way more ridiculous).

I'm well aware of this and it's all true. In a way, yah, you can't compare recovery ratios because the situations are so different. I'm sure, among other things, YRT would look a lot better if it didn't have to run service to the sticks, north of Richmond Hill. And TTC has a more mature service and a subway and blah blah blah. TTC is underfunded, unquestionably. They're also extremely retrograde in their thinking, internally, as your point with the monthly passes amply points out. Anyway, it's fine to compare ratios as long as you understand the context that makes them different. York Region wants to get to 50/50. I don't think there are many systems that look at TTC and WISH they could get to 73% or whatever it is. They should be getting operating subsidies, but that's a whole other discussion.

This TAX conversation is COMPLETELY incorrect ... the prices in the 416 vs 905 are nearly the same, actually many 905 towns (e.g. Markham) have higher average property values then the entire 416.

You can't just site examples and forgot the rest of the city, taxes apply across to the entire city, and Toronto as some areas with very very cheap housing !

This is a strange point....I, for one, wasn't talking about average prices. If you take two homes at the same price, say $500K for the sake of argument, a 905 house will have higher taxes than the 416 one, period. I thought the other example you posted made the same point. And, rather important, taxes are no calculated based on the property tax value, per se, but rather the assessed price. Similar sounding, but different.

Similar to Taal's example...not every muni has a handy calculator but:
-Average ($521K) house in Markham = $4332 (city + region + education)
-Same price house in Richmond Hill= $4449.266 (which shows that the RH property taxes are a bit higher than Markham, since the other 2 are the same)
-Same price house in Pickering=$6782.57(!)
-Same house in Hamilton = $7,228

-Same price house in Toronto = $3,766.87

Pretty black and white to me. Taxes are higher in the 905, Rob Ford is and always was full of it etc. etc. It's not even close. Obviously all these example are single-unit residential.

(And, I'm amused to see the toronto calculator breaks out the special tax for the Scarborough Subway, which should be called the Ford Tax, as a special memoriam.)

Indeed, amusingly, Oshawa's website points out that even a house assessed at $250K would pay more than a $521K house in Toronto. If Torontonians paid the same rates as the fine people of Durham, you'd have gold-plated subways running wherever you need them.
https://www.oshawa.ca/mun_res/tax_col/calcul.asp
(note to self: don't move to Durham Region)

 

[Electrify]

Repost from the other YRT thread (should have been posted here):

YRT just announced their fare increases for the next TWO years. Looks like they are following the TTC's strategy by freezing cash fares, but increasing passes and tickets/Presto:

http://yrt.ca/en/News/index.aspx?Fe...3&newsId=9746b888-3959-401f-84e1-100e79e8fd42

The irritating thing with this strategy is that when you factor in the price of a Presto card ($6), let alone the $5 minimum for auto reload, it makes switching from cash to bulk far less appealing. Doing some quick math, when factoring in the cost of a Presto card, in 2012 you will have to use the service more than 12 times in a year before the card pays for itself. No problem for a regular user, but those who don't use transit will face yet another barrier to keeping them from using it.

 

[nfitz]

The irritating thing with this strategy is that when you factor in the price of a Presto card ($6), let alone the $5 minimum for auto reload, it makes switching from cash to bulk far less appealing. Doing some quick math, when factoring in the cost of a Presto card, in 2012 you will have to use the service more than 12 times in a year before the card pays for itself. No problem for a regular user, but those who don't use transit will face yet another barrier to keeping them from using it.

There have been plenty of opportunities to get free Presto cards, especially in 2012!

If the card is good for at least 5 years, then that at most it adds $1.20 a year. By 2016 you save 50 cents a trip using Presto. So it pays for itself after 3 rides. Or 2 return trips.

Perhaps someone who doesn't take more than 2 return transit trips in the GTA is better off not using Presto!

 

[taal]

YRT plan on increasing service though ??

 

[muller877]

Your also including the Ontario education tax in this, which isn't part of the municipal tax. It's the same mill rate for Toronto and Kenora (which means the person with a the small $500,000 house in Toronto is paying 10 times more in education tax than someone with a bigger $50,000 house in Wawa). You need to subtract the 0.203% education tax to get a feel for what the municipality gets.

The residential rates without the Ontario education tax aren't difficult to find: (these are mostly 2014 rates):

Toronto - 0.5000085% (0.7230085% with the education tax).
Mississauga - 0.70537%
Brampton - 0.938747%
Oshawa - 1.38767%
Pickering - 1.098837%
Vaughan - 0.659149%
Richmond Hill - 0.650984%

... hmm, odd that you chose Richmond Hill for your example.

And really ... a $2.5 million Toronto condo for comparison?

When looking at Mill Rates it's not apples to apples. You are looking at residential only. Where Toronto is different is in multi-residential. Most cities realized that they are fleecing renters by charging 3x the rate of tax (landlords pass a significant portion of their property tax payments to renters). Most other cities realized their folly and corrected this (by equalizing the multi-residential with the residential). Toronto is very slowly doing this...I think it's about 10-20 years until they are equalized.

Think of this...you can be renting at a condo which stares into a 1970's apartment building. $300 of your monthly rent goes to property taxes while the person you see across the street has $900 going to the city!

I'm guessing a significant portion of the Mill rate difference between Toronto and Mississauga is represented by this. Stealing from Peter to pay Paul.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

When looking at Mill Rates it's not apples to apples. You are looking at residential only. Where Toronto is different is in multi-residential. Most cities realized that they are fleecing renters by charging 3x the rate of tax (landlords pass a significant portion of their property tax payments to renters). Most other cities realized their folly and corrected this (by equalizing the multi-residential with the residential). Toronto is very slowly doing this...I think it's about 10-20 years until they are equalized.

There's a lot of apples/oranges in this category. That's why I posted straight-up, single-unit housing rates above. The 905 has also "undermined" Toronto by passing more of its tax burden onto residents and giving breaks to businesses, luring them out to the suburbs. That may change over the coming years but, as you rightly point out, simply listing mill rates does not tell the whole story. Someone may have better (or at least a longer list of) numbers than what I posted but I think they lay out the narrative pretty simple, at least in terms of the residential rate.

 

[doady]

I don't like YRT are still raising fares so aggressively even after ridership loss. If raise fares to the point of losing riders, then it is decreasing fare revenue, not increasing. Especially with gas prices dropped so much recently, I think they are making a huge mistake.

 

[Electrify]

So I went to the Public Information Centre today at Richmond Hill Centre today:

- To address the concerns of our lost friend yrtsucks, I asked someone about the Markham Rd bus and about bringing it in house, and the long of the short of it is that there are talks. He didn't want to give any firm dates or proposals (not even sure if he was supposed to mention it, let alone me reposting it), but I would bet on a development on that front within the next 5+ years. The thing which is holding it back is the limited amount of bus capacity and budget restraints.

- In the other thread someone mentioned the rough connection between Viva Pink and the GO train at Unionville. Sadly, they stood by their "headway" position (anyone who knows how to use any scheduling apps or sites knows that this is a thin excuse) and suggested simply catching the earlier bus. Admittedly, it is not my fight so I didn't get too deep into fighting it.

- I also discussed my concerns about the Weldrick-Newkirk bus and Major Mackenzie routes. The former is not looking at any increases, though I did mention that considering its limited frequency and local routing, it is surprisingly busy with about 5-10 people in the bus on average, and could benefit from 30 minute midday service. The 4/4A Major Mackenzie buses are looking to go from 19 to 21 minute headways. While not the end of the world, I did point out that the routes are surprisingly busy and are even at standing room at times as well. One of the higher ups, who wasn't rude or anything but I could tell was a little less impersonal compared to his colleagues, said it all comes down to budgets: That they would have to remove a bus from someone elses route to meet the needs of my route. And that until people are getting left behind at stops, improving frequencies on it is not a priority.

However, I mentioned about trying to aim the 25 bus to come in between 4 and 4A buses to close the headway gap again, even if it cannot be perfect (ie: a 4 bus comes, a 25 comes 5 minutes later, and then the 4A comes in another 15 minutes), and they seemed far more open to the idea than last year. Apparently they did some surveys and found that very few riders took advantage of their close running times to make a transfer across the region.

- There are two new express routes they are looking at running. One would be similar to the restructured Viva Green called the Leslie Express. It would be a rush hour route which would operate every 20 minutes, and I think they may be seriously underestimating its potential popularity - especially once the Yonge BRT construction kicks into high gear. The other express route would run from Davis Drive and the 404 down to the Beaver Creek area, with a potential stop a the carpool lot at Wellington. Apparently there are a lot of people in the north end who have been saying they would like something to better connect them to that employment area. From what I can tell, it will either be a massive success, perhaps even turn GTA transit planning on its head, or not...

- Finally, perhaps the best news of all, is that when I suggested adding a west-east zone with Thornhill-Newmarket being the buffer zone as a means to help control fare increases, a person said that they are actually looking at eliminating the fare zones and 407 express bus premiums! Of course this is all dependant on funding and not something to hold your breath for, but for those who travel extended distances this is likely a very positive fare relief.

 

[xtremesniper]

So I went to the Public Information Centre today at Richmond Hill Centre today...

Thanks for that update. Seems like they keep getting limited by budgets but then they keep raising fares, which drives down ridership, which leads to this:

I don't like YRT are still raising fares so aggressively even after ridership loss. If raise fares to the point of losing riders, then it is decreasing fare revenue, not increasing. Especially with gas prices dropped so much recently, I think they are making a huge mistake.

I agree, and I think generally everyone else agrees too except the decision makers at YRT.

 

[Evening]

Finally, perhaps the best news of all, is that when I suggested adding a west-east zone with Thornhill-Newmarket being the buffer zone as a means to help control fare increases, a person said that they are actually looking at eliminating the fare zones and 407 express bus premiums! Of course this is all dependant on funding and not something to hold your breath for, but for those who travel extended distances this is likely a very positive fare relief.

This is great! I've never crossed a zone boundary but I've always wondered how such a system is properly enforced unless they stop the bus at the zone boundary and check everyone's transfer. This will allow for less fare evasion and an easier to understand fare system.

 

[ShonTron]

I've only crossed the zone boundary on Viva Blue, which is proof-of-payment, so I don't know how York enforces it on non-POP routes. I imagine Presto taps the zone upgrade if transferring outside your zone boundary, otherwise, I'm not sure how it works when Presto is becoming the dominent method of fare payment. Only a very few routes - Viva Blue, 98 Yonge North, the infrequent 22A and Route 50 to Keswick - cross a zone boundary. The Zone 1/Zone 2 boundary is a soft boundary, meaning that in Oak Ridges, you pay only the one-zone fare headed northbound or southbound, the two-zone fare only applies going from southern Richmond Hill to Aurora or vice versa.

 

[Transportfan]

- Finally, perhaps the best news of all, is that when I suggested adding a west-east zone with Thornhill-Newmarket being the buffer zone...

Do you mean Yonge St? If so, I think that's a bad idea. That's like having to cross a TTC fare zone across the width of Toronto. York's three southern municipalities form a unified urban are and should stay one zone.

 

[xtremesniper]

Do you mean Yonge St? If so, I think that's a bad idea. That's like having to cross a TTC fare zone across the width of Toronto. York's three southern municipalities form a unified urban are and should stay one zone.

Agreed, this sounds like a terrible idea.

 

[salsa]

Just when I thought Viva stop announcements couldn't get any dumber, now they tacked on this nonsense:

"For your safety, stay seated and hold on until the bus comes to a complete stop."


This is in addition to the "For your safety when entering or leaving the bus, please use the dedicated crosswalk, and obey all pedestrian signals".

I've attached an audio recording of the new stop announcements. What a mouthful of useless information. I'm so glad I don't commute to Markham anymore. .