rbt
Senior Member
Toronto Rockets do not have a maximum operational elevation that this type of design (albeit larger scale) would go over.
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Who's done better on transit? Vancouver or Toronto
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
Toronto Rockets do not have a maximum operational elevation that this type of design (albeit larger scale) would go over.
44 North
Senior Member
Yes, there would obviously had been a transfer at Downsview with two different systems. But there was no rule stating that building RT to York U (or to the vacant fields beyond) had to be an all-underground 6-car heavy rail extension of Line 1 - it was merely selected as that because seemingly no other option was ever looked at.
But I guess such a system would naturally create the dreaded transfer...which is good enough for Scarboro, but oddly not for anywhere else in the city. It really is no wonder Scarb feels shafted when the SRT / S(L)RT light metro solution is the right solution for them, but not for anywhere else in the city.
And I wouldn't say we've come out of TYSSE as "losers", but we have come out with a much lighter pocketbook - and we'll be losing significant operating losses in perpetuity.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Other than the Evergreen Line, any whole new transit lines or extensions funded/under construction? Anything funded past 2017?
Toronto's approved/under construction projects adds over 100 new rail stations to GTHA's rapid transit network (LRT stations, subway, and commuter) from now through 2025 (...plus a few years beyond for the presumed delays). There seems to be very few plaes in North America with this dramatic planned growth in number of rail stations -- not even New York City.
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CDL.TO
Moderator
Possibly Denver.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Good one! Probably a good candidate for 2nd place.
Not nearly as big an increase in stations as Toronto.
Toronto's scorecard, 2015-2029
Hurontario 27
Crosstown 25
Finch West 19
Sheppard East 26
SmartTrack +15 infills
Vaughan extn +6
Scarborough extn +3
That's a whopping 121 upcoming new rail stations for the next 10-15 years. This is a doubling of rail stations GTHA-wide (excluding TTC streetcar 'bus stop poles'). Even if only half complete, that's still a whopping 60 new rail stations. We aren't even counting UPX, Weston GO, West Harbor GO, Stoney Creek GO, Caledonia GO, and other new GO stations, so the numbers may be possibly higher than this.
This is more stations than Denver's FasTracks LRT megaproject-wide (I'm being generous here -- combined -- existing & new!).
Our superbly-transit-frustrated populace has buffered so many pending transit projects into the construction/funding/planned pipline -- that it is going to really spew out through the 2020s -- Toronto's transit statistics is going to turn quite a few North American heads by the end of the 2020s. We may yet cram even more into the pipeline in the coming years, so the number may actually exceed this even more, even with a few cancels (e.g. Scarborough).
Edit: I just realized Scarborough Subway will create a net loss of stations due to removal of Scarborough RT. But that's only a loss of 5 -- a GTHA-wide droplet in an expansion of 120+ stations.
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CDL.TO
Moderator
That all assumes that more stations is necessarily better.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
True, dat.
Stations aren't the whole transit picture.
Stations aren't the whole transit picture.
snowystar
New Member
No. But I think one of the reason is that Vancouver typically don't drag projects forever once funding is available.
Minor projects like those station upgrade only funded up to 3 years (hence there is nothing past 2018 right now, but more things may come up on the 2016's business plan).
For major project, most projects are usually awaiting funding, and once there is funding, they would be done within 4-5 years. For instance, Millennium Line received funding 1998 and completed 2002; Canada Line funded in 2005, completed in 2009; Evergreen Line funded 2012, target completion date is 2016. If the recent funding was approved, first of the lines would go in operation before 2021.
nfitz
Superstar
Sitting right now sweating on a 99-B-line bus (B8031). One thing Vancouver hasn't figured out is that you can air-condition buses. Or build sidewalks on streets leading to roads with buses without massive tripping hazards because sidewalks are so old.
Frequency is very good though! TTC can learn from this. And some card readers show Visa, etc logos, so presumably that's coming soon.
Frequency is very good though! TTC can learn from this. And some card readers show Visa, etc logos, so presumably that's coming soon.
WislaHD
Superstar
I certainly hope the momentum doesn't abate because of this.
We need to go ahead with the DRL LONG+FULL, from Dundas West/Sunnyside to Sheppard East. Once the DRL is moving, Yonge North should commence. We also need to get on building the WELRT and WWLRT.
I believe in the 2020s the case for a Queensway LRT spur and Line 2 extension to Sherway Gardens will become more to the forefront as the Six Points Interchange is completed and the ECC starts shaping up with all that extra density.
After that, who knows. When all that is completed it seems all of Toronto's transit woes from the first two decades of the century will be addressed.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Never "all".
Toronto won't ever be satisfied even if we pepper it with 500 new rail stations. It's just too sprawling an area.
A token 100 will be a big improvement, though. But it can't come soon enough.
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aquateam
Active Member
So, I visited Vancouver for the first time this weekend. My impressions:
-It's great how you can get downtown via skytrain in 25 minutes for only ~$8.
-The stations are tiny, it must be crowded during rush hour. Especially city hall station, so I wonder how that's going to deal with being a transfer station once the millenium line broadway extension happens.
-The driverless trains are pretty great. I love being able to look through the front of the train.
-The network of trolleybuses is great, much better than choking on diesel fumes.
-It's a good idea that they close off Granville street (their entertainment district) to vehicles (except EMS) at night.
-The B-line branding is embarassingly corny, and actually makes me appreciate the ridiculous amount of marketing that goes into GTHA transit agencies. Maybe now that the UPX team has finished designing the Waffen-SS uniforms for the ticket attendants they can find jobs in Vancouver
-I don't understand how the B line to UBC doesn't have reserved lanes, not that it was necessary for a long weekend.
And I also found this Neptus report comparing urban development in Metro Vancouver to the GTHA. The basic narrative is that between 2001 and 2011:
-Metro Vancouver directed development to existing urban areas while the GTHA sprawled. 69% of Vancouver net population growth was in urban areas, whereas 86%(?!!!) of GTHA population growth was in greenfield sites. In fact, many GTHA urban centres experienced population loss to greenfield development.
-Within urban areas, Vancouver was able to achieve Transit Oriented Development. 50% of new population was accommodated near a frequent transit route, and 23% within 800 meters of a skytrain station. Compare to Toronto, where 18% was accommodated near a frequent transit route and 10% within a kilometer of a GO station.
-Even though Ontario has been constructing an impressive amount of transit, transit is ultimately a transport solution to a land-use problem. Spending tens of billions of debt-funded dollars on subway lines in sprawling subdivisions can make no difference in mode share, whereas you can not spend a dime and achieve a mode shift just by directing growth to existing infrastructure. What Ontario is doing is what they call "running hard to stand still".
-Vancouver's evergreen line opens soon, and when that opens Vancouver will have Canada's longest grade-separated rapid transit network, longer than Toronto's and Montreal's, which is impressive considering Vancouver's first line opened only less than 30 years ago!
-Vancouver has achieved an effective mix of housing types, whereas in the GTHA we are still polarized between single-family detached and massive condo towers. Vancouver is achieving density more smartly.
-It's great how you can get downtown via skytrain in 25 minutes for only ~$8.
-The stations are tiny, it must be crowded during rush hour. Especially city hall station, so I wonder how that's going to deal with being a transfer station once the millenium line broadway extension happens.
-The driverless trains are pretty great. I love being able to look through the front of the train.
-The network of trolleybuses is great, much better than choking on diesel fumes.
-It's a good idea that they close off Granville street (their entertainment district) to vehicles (except EMS) at night.
-The B-line branding is embarassingly corny, and actually makes me appreciate the ridiculous amount of marketing that goes into GTHA transit agencies. Maybe now that the UPX team has finished designing the Waffen-SS uniforms for the ticket attendants they can find jobs in Vancouver
-I don't understand how the B line to UBC doesn't have reserved lanes, not that it was necessary for a long weekend.
And I also found this Neptus report comparing urban development in Metro Vancouver to the GTHA. The basic narrative is that between 2001 and 2011:
-Metro Vancouver directed development to existing urban areas while the GTHA sprawled. 69% of Vancouver net population growth was in urban areas, whereas 86%(?!!!) of GTHA population growth was in greenfield sites. In fact, many GTHA urban centres experienced population loss to greenfield development.
-Within urban areas, Vancouver was able to achieve Transit Oriented Development. 50% of new population was accommodated near a frequent transit route, and 23% within 800 meters of a skytrain station. Compare to Toronto, where 18% was accommodated near a frequent transit route and 10% within a kilometer of a GO station.
-Even though Ontario has been constructing an impressive amount of transit, transit is ultimately a transport solution to a land-use problem. Spending tens of billions of debt-funded dollars on subway lines in sprawling subdivisions can make no difference in mode share, whereas you can not spend a dime and achieve a mode shift just by directing growth to existing infrastructure. What Ontario is doing is what they call "running hard to stand still".
-Vancouver's evergreen line opens soon, and when that opens Vancouver will have Canada's longest grade-separated rapid transit network, longer than Toronto's and Montreal's, which is impressive considering Vancouver's first line opened only less than 30 years ago!
-Vancouver has achieved an effective mix of housing types, whereas in the GTHA we are still polarized between single-family detached and massive condo towers. Vancouver is achieving density more smartly.
mdrejhon
Senior Member
I visited Vancouver twice and they've densified better along transit corridors than we have.
Let's hope the Metrolinx Mobility Hubs thingy really properly takes off in the next 10-15 years. That's much, much needed densification along the GO corridors. They are stumbling, delaying, but they are going to need to hit the ground running as GO electrifies.
Maybe by the late 2030s there'll be condo/office towers in the Aldershot south parking lot. Lots of development land available when 15-min all-day faster electrified service arrives there in the mid-2020s (with peak-period 40min expresses to downtown Toronto)
And new infills all over the network for the allstop trains, including at the towers Etobicoke South (Between Exhibition and Mimico).
Let's hope the Metrolinx Mobility Hubs thingy really properly takes off in the next 10-15 years. That's much, much needed densification along the GO corridors. They are stumbling, delaying, but they are going to need to hit the ground running as GO electrifies.
Maybe by the late 2030s there'll be condo/office towers in the Aldershot south parking lot. Lots of development land available when 15-min all-day faster electrified service arrives there in the mid-2020s (with peak-period 40min expresses to downtown Toronto)
And new infills all over the network for the allstop trains, including at the towers Etobicoke South (Between Exhibition and Mimico).
WislaHD
Superstar
I think that though we are behind Vancouver, it is not as if the plan in Toronto is to not build TOD development. That is actually the stated plan and objective for cities like Vaughan, Markham and Richmond Hill (who are currently waiting on the transit to open first).
Here in Toronto, we clearly have an avenues plan to focus intensification along our highly frequent avenue bus routes. Waterfront LRT lines will convert waterfront communities into communities with high transit mode share and spur further TOD. The whole stretch between Cloverdale Mall and Islington Station along Dundas St. West will in 20 years time be home to very dense 'vancouver-ized' condo forest with easy access to subway and GO stations. (Western extension of Line 2 may even be on the cards) Further intensification downtown and along our rapid transit lines will continue to happen for decades to come.
The one challenge I see in Toronto is how do we allow low-rise densification of our neighbourhoods surrounding rapid transit while maintaining the character and built-form of the neighbourhoods? Namely, how do we encourage more 'missing middle' housing stock?
Here in Toronto, we clearly have an avenues plan to focus intensification along our highly frequent avenue bus routes. Waterfront LRT lines will convert waterfront communities into communities with high transit mode share and spur further TOD. The whole stretch between Cloverdale Mall and Islington Station along Dundas St. West will in 20 years time be home to very dense 'vancouver-ized' condo forest with easy access to subway and GO stations. (Western extension of Line 2 may even be on the cards) Further intensification downtown and along our rapid transit lines will continue to happen for decades to come.
The one challenge I see in Toronto is how do we allow low-rise densification of our neighbourhoods surrounding rapid transit while maintaining the character and built-form of the neighbourhoods? Namely, how do we encourage more 'missing middle' housing stock?
ssiguy2
Senior Member
It is very true that Vancouver has done a very good job of creating TOD around it's SkyTrain stations.
The devil, however, is in the details. Yes the condos were built but that was by tearing down low rise apt buildings.............the wealthy moved in as the poor were evicted out. You also had obscene land speculation due to this especially along the Cambie/Canada Line Corridor. Houses bought for obscene amounts and literally flipped overnight..........none of the low cost housing that the city zoned for Cambie is, nor will it ever, take place.
In Vancouver TOD has been nothing but bad news for low income Vancouverites who are pushed out of their apts and due to land speculation where transit stations hold premium values, they are pushed further away from transit. In other words the low income who need good transit the most are the sacrificial lambs of Vancouver transit and development plans.
Many of these new condo towers you see have very much come at the expense of the poor made worse by the fact that most are bought for pure speculation and many will never even have anyone living in them. The city made a big deal about South Marine at Canada Line and how the development sold so fast and hence how Vancouverites embrace TOD. What the mayor "forgot" to mention is that of the 190 units sold on said weekend, they only went to 80 different buyers.
The devil, however, is in the details. Yes the condos were built but that was by tearing down low rise apt buildings.............the wealthy moved in as the poor were evicted out. You also had obscene land speculation due to this especially along the Cambie/Canada Line Corridor. Houses bought for obscene amounts and literally flipped overnight..........none of the low cost housing that the city zoned for Cambie is, nor will it ever, take place.
In Vancouver TOD has been nothing but bad news for low income Vancouverites who are pushed out of their apts and due to land speculation where transit stations hold premium values, they are pushed further away from transit. In other words the low income who need good transit the most are the sacrificial lambs of Vancouver transit and development plans.
Many of these new condo towers you see have very much come at the expense of the poor made worse by the fact that most are bought for pure speculation and many will never even have anyone living in them. The city made a big deal about South Marine at Canada Line and how the development sold so fast and hence how Vancouverites embrace TOD. What the mayor "forgot" to mention is that of the 190 units sold on said weekend, they only went to 80 different buyers.